PDA

View Full Version : Spring Gun Tuning



Supermick
23-04-2006, 03:16 PM
Thanks to Hsing-ee for the following :-


Tuning The Older Springer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALL WORK DONE USING THIS INFORMATION IS AT YOUR OWN RISK - APPLY COMMONSENSE TO YOUR WORK AND SEEK ASSISTANCE FROM A QUALIFIED GUNSMITH IF YOU GET OUT OF YOUR DEPTH. Use a spring compressor and be careful!

If you want your old or new-to-you old spring-piston rifle to give you its best then you could try the following tune-up. It takes a bit of patience and elbow-grease and dosen't involve any drastic modifications but if you follow it carefully your rifle should shoot sweetly afterwards for a good long time.

The following is a basic tune for spring-piston rifles which was common in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The idea is to make the rifle as smooth and consistent as possible, and does not involve modifying the rifle in terms of piston weights, top hats, etc, that is for the more advanced airgunsmith. I used this on a Feinwerkbau Sport recently and it would cut 7mm groups at 25 yards from a rest, and in my 30 year old BSA Meteor which does 10ft/lbs and 20mm groups with a standard spring so it seems to work OK. The guide refers to a rifle with a leather washer, obviously don't soak the washer in silicone oil if it is of a synthetic material, just wipe a small drop of SM50 over it before assembly.

For the full works you will need:

new spring
new piston washer and buffers if fitted
new breech washer

Can of Dri-Slide (or Gun Slide from Chambers) or tube Molykote GN paste
Abbey LT2 molybdenum grease (J.S.Ramsbottoms has this)
Abbey SM50 oil (J.S.Ramsbottoms has this)

Solvol Autosol metal polish ( a car accessories shop like Halfords or a hardware store)
Methylated spirit or white spirit
Very fine abrasive paper
Cheap toothbrush (unused)
18” length of broomhandle
Couple of packets unused ‘J’ cloths or similar

The idea of the tune is to make sure the bearing surfaces are smooth and appropriately lubricated, with the aim of consistent mechanical action giving consistent velocities without dieselling and so giving good accuracy. The molybdenum in the Dri-Slide binds to steel giving a very slippery hard surface.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL THAT YOU CLEAN ALL THE PARTS COMPLETELY AFTER POLISHING THEM WITH ABRASIVE PAPER OR METAL POLISH. Use newspaper under the parts as you work and throw them out as they are soiled. Have a clean area to put your clean parts and don’t do ‘dirty’ work next to them. Be careful with naked flames and the hair-drier, the methylated spirit and the carrier element in the Dri-Slide ar e both highly inflammable. WORK IN A WELL VENTILATED ROOM OR WORKSHOP.

1. Place the new piston washer in a pellet tin or similar receptacle and pour over Abbey SM50 to cover it completely. Leave to soak overnight.

2. Disassemble the rifle, taking care to store small parts so they don’t get lost.

3. THE COMPRESSION CHAMBER

A. Degrease all the parts and the inside of the compression chamber using the meths. The broomhandle should have a 3” slot cut in one end so that a stip of J cloth can be slid in and wrapped round to give a cleaning head. Be very thorough, and keep using fresh strips of J-cloth until they start coming out completely clean. Check that the transfer port is clear by using a non-metalisc implement like a cocktail stick and examine carefully by eye. Use the toothbrush and methys to clean the threads that the rear cylinder block screws into. Dry the inside of the compression chamber using further J-cloth strips.

B. If you feel it necessary you can remove the sharp edges on the inside and outside of the cocking-slot. Pack the compression chamber with cloth and using a spatula or table-knife with the fine abrasive paper wrapped around it smooth the inner and out edges of the slot. Don’t overdo this, just remove the sharp EDGES from the slot. Degrease again and be meticulous about removing all the metal filings and abrasive dust using methys and J-cloths. Remove the packing cloth and degrease again until you are sure all the dust has been removed.

C. Using a hair-drier, warm the compression tube by blowing hot air inside and outside the tube body. When it is warm, pour a tablespoon-size amount of Dri-Slide into the compression chamber and roll the chamber around so that the liquid coats all of the surface of the chamber and also further back in the area above the cocking slot. Be careful not to lose all the Drislide out of the transfer port! The chamber can be left to dry for a couple of hours or overnight. Alternatively, rub in some Molykote GN paste onto the whole surface of the inside of the compression chamber.

D. When you are ABSOLUTELY SURE IT IS DRY, use a tightly-wound long piece of J-cloth on the broom handle, burnish the surface of the compression chamber thoroughly. A lot of the Dri-Slide will appear to come off, but it is leaving behind a layer so don't worry.

4. THE PISTON

After disassembling the piston, degrease it inside and out as above, using meths and J cloths. Polish any scratches on the piston body out using the fine abrasive paper, using a rotary action i.e. turning the piston on its axis and holding the paper still so the mark is polished out in a ring around the piston. Polish the whole of the outside of the piston with Solvol Autosol, particularly the back of the piston where it makes metal-to-metal contact with the cylinder wall. Use a J-cloth and to apply and polish off the Solvol. Carefully polish the surface of the bent (part of the piston which engages the sear) with Solvol on a J-cloth drawn tight over something flat and rigid (e.g. a small file). Degrease and clean with meths. Heat the piston up with the hair-drier and coat the inside AND the outside of the piston with Dri-Slide as with the compression chamber, except you don’t need to polish it in afterwards, just leave the coating as it is.

5. THE SPRING

Take a peice of the fine abrasive paper and place it on a very flat surface e.g. a suitably strong piece of glass or steel plate. Polish polish the flat ends on the paper until they are shiny. You can make this a mirror finish if you then polish the ends using Solvol Autosol on cloth stretched over the plate. Degrease and clean the spring carefully afterwards.

6. THE PISTON GUIDE

Degrease inside and out and polish out scratches using a rotary action using the fine abrasive paper and then Solvol Autosol to give a shiney surface. If you like, pad a vice and use a file to remove the sharp edges on the base of the guide. Degrease and clean as above. Make sure you clean the passage through the middle of the guide and get rid of any old grease and dust in there.


ASSEMBLY

1. Take the piston washer that has been soaking in SM50 and squeeze it dry using a J-cloth. Fit it to the piston, avoid getting any lubricant on the screw/bolt attaching it to the piston body. Smear a couple of drops of SM50 around the base of the leather washer (away from its face).

2. Take a lollipop stick and smear a stripe of LT2 grease about 1” in width around the back of the piston (trigger end), be fairly generous.

3. Fit the piston back into the compression chamber, easing the piston head into the chamber gently. It may be a little bit swollen at this point, but persist in easing it in and don’t use hammering or excessive force. Line up the cocking slot in the piston with the one in the compression chamber.

4. Using a small pad of J-cloth, apply a thin smear of LT2 grease to the outside of the spring and a generous layer to one flat end. Fit the spring into the piston with the greased end forwards.

5. Apply a liberal amount of LT2 grease to the outside and INSIDE of the spring guide and fit it to the end of the spring.

6. Smear a little LT2 grease on the threads of the back-block and use this to compress the spring and reassemble.

7. Reassemble the rest of the rifle using LT2 grease on all the main points of wear. Apply SM50 oil to the trigger by dropping it into the mechanism, allow the excess to drip out before reassembly. Replace the breech washer with a new one, and clean the barrel in the normal way. Make sure all the stock screws are tightened appropriately (not too loose, not too tight).


The rifle may be a little bit smokey the first ten or twenty shots but should then settle down to be very consistent. All that is needed in terms of lubrication after this is a drop of two of SM50 at the joints occassionally, and once every 1500 pellets or so a drop of SM50 ***BEHIND*** the piston washer, which can be done by removing the stock and putting the oil in through the cocking slot. Leather washers can take a long time to bed in, so I recommend doing alot of plinking, like two or three tins of pellets, before the gun reaches its peak. Then you should be able to shoot the rifle for thousands of pellets without doing anything more than slip a new spring in occasionally and a sparing use of SM50.

CAUTION: Do NOT over-lubricate. Stick to the amounts indicated here - less is more, especially with polished bearing surfaces.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Supermick
23-04-2006, 03:19 PM
Thanks to Rob M for the following advice :-


Making leather piston washers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hints on making a new leather piston washer:

I get off-cuts of sole leather from a cobbler's shop to make new piston washers.

It's good to make your own washers, with a few scraps of sole-leather you have all you need to keep an old-fashioned springer working for a lifetime! It's also satisfying to make the bits you need to keep your old guns alive. These methods can help with the manufacture of leather breech seals too if you should need them.

The ways that leather washers are affixed to the piston vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some are held on by bolts, hex bolts or machine screws, others are riveted on.

To make the washer, measure the diameter of the old washer (or the piston) then add twice the height of the washer to the diameter. Cut out a disc this size (approximately) from your leather, carefully use a sharp knife or fretsaw or similar. Find the centre of the leather disc, and drill a small hole there, then, with a nut and washers, fasten the leather disc to a bolt that you can hold in the chuck of an electric drill. Now you can use the drill as a lathe, and use some clean files and wet and dry abrasive paper to round the disc off perfectly and also make the leather thinner if necessary. It has to be "Wet and Dry" type abrasive, as sandpaper or glasspaper will shed bits of abrasive that might end up embedded in the leather, this doesn't happen with "wet and dry". If using a drill or lathe wear eye protection. Depending on how much reshaping you need to do, a dust mask might also be necessary. You can shape leather like this this easily by hand if you don't have power tools, but it will take a little longer.

If the leather has a shiny side, I usually remove the shine with Wet and Dry, as it is sometimes a paint-like finish applied to the leather and could have adverse effects on the eficiency of the finished washer. Some say that the shiny side should go on the outside of the washer where it contacts the cylinder wall, but washers made of raw unshiny leather soon develop a shine after a few dozen shots anyway.

Most leather washers are actually a pair of washers,a large rear washer that is formed into a cup shape, then a smaller front washer that fits inside the cup to minimise lost volume, so you will probably end up making two discs, one smaller than the other.

Fit the washer(s) to the piston, then fasten a jubilee clip around the washer to shape it into the necessary 'cup' shape. It's worth taking your time, tightening it up a little at a time over a period of a few hours. I spray the washer liberally with a little aerosol of stuff I got from a cobbler's shop called 'Leather Stretcher', which actually just softens leather enabling it to be formed into shape more easily. This stuff really helps, and makes the job much, much easier. Tighten up the jubilee clip until the washer fits easily into the cylinder. Spray it, retighten the jubilee clip until you are happy with the fit and shape, then leave it to dry and set overnight or for a day or two if you can. If necessary, any bits of leather that you feel need removing can be carefully trimmed off now with a sharp knife.

Don't worry if, at the moment, it does not look anything like the old washer: The last step in the procedure will shape it precisely to fit the piston and the cylinder. At this point, the washer might appear much thicker than the original, and have a large gap between the back of the washer and the piston, especially around the outside, but don't worry. The important thing now is that the piston can be refitted into the cylinder without the leather washer getting damaged on threads, cocking slots, etc.

Before refitting it, let some "Bisley Gun Lubricant", or "SM50" soak into it for a few hours, or overnight, this is a silicone oil that will not cause the leather to disintegrate over time, plus it contains molybdenum which will lubricate the leather in use. Let the Bisley Gun Lubricant soak well in, but before refitting it, you might need to dab it with a clean cloth or tissue if there is much silicone lube on the outside of the leather. Silicone lube is good for the leather, but no good where metals will be in contact with each other, so you don't want it dripping off the washer into the cylinder or smearing the cylinder wall, for instance.

Obviously, if you are going to put GN paste or moly grease on the piston, do that now. When you have finished reassembling the gun, let the gun stand for a few days with the piston at the end of the cylinder under spring pressure (as if it has been fired), so that the spring pressure can slowly form the washer to fit the cylinder perfectly. Avoid the temptation to fire it straight away! This last step shouldn't be rushed, as allowing the leather to gradually conform exactly to the shape of the cylinder, rather than slamming it suddenly into shape by firing the gun straight away, will increase its life and help to stop it disintegrating when it gets old.

If you do all this, and haven't made the washer too big or too small, you should have an efficient and long-lasting piston head washer... It may take a short while to bed in, but it shouldn't require any more lubricant for thousands of shots now. If you should ever want to relube it I recommend taking it out of the gun to do it, rather than putting silicone oil down the transfer port which could end up damaging the piston and the cylinder.

Even if you buy a pre-made washer, some of these tips should still be useful.

Hope this helps!

Rob M

Bad Beagle
01-05-2006, 06:07 PM
I can vouch for this tuning guide - as a complete amateur I have followed it successfully see the review section Gamo Quickshot.

Big thanks to Hsing-ee.

franktheferret
24-05-2006, 02:27 AM
Good stuff Mick, but for a final degrease, I like to use Iso-propyly Alcohol. You can't easily get it these days, but ordinary Surgical Spirit is pretty good. It absorbs water much better than commercial-grade meths, and with no powdery residue.

Alan.

Paul Hudson
24-05-2006, 05:36 PM
I get my IPA from Maplin. They have a store a short walk from where I work, but they also do mail-order if you're having trouble finding a supplier.

Maplin website (http://www.maplin.co.uk/search.aspx?MenuNo=1083&MenuName=IPA%20Cleaner&FromMenu=y&criteria=IPA%20Cleaner&doy=24m5&worldid=9)

Paul.

Hsing-ee
24-05-2006, 11:23 PM
Just make friends with a nurse, they use gallons of IPA in hospitals - they don't trust the staff with 70% ethanol because they know they'll just drink it, and IPA is used as a convenient surface steriliser.

Steve1
25-05-2006, 05:52 AM
Morning fella's just passing through

If you want to give you're spring a quick, thorough cleaning then you can follow the following[small] guide, heres what I do. First, you need an un-used toothbrush, the longer the better but it does not matter as long as it's unused. Two might be better, as you will see later.

Of course, it is better to work outside, but prepare a clean surface so the greased spring does not attract unwanted dirt or bits of sawdust, whatever may be around, you get the idea.

T-Cut Original (http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10151&productId=169076&categoryId=31526) or similar. The point here is not to shine, just to restore the surface of the spring, remove any grit and gunk. You could do the full polish with power-tools but I'm mostly speaking of general once-every-so-often maintanence, not power cleaning a really old spring which needs more care :)

If you have two brushes you can use one to apply the T-Cut evenly over the spring, and clean it throughly with the brush head. You could re-use this one later if you have an alcohol based cleaner to clean the brush.

Once any residual T-Cut is cleaned off the spring you can apply some grease of you're choosing to other brush, or re-use the other one. Apply a nice even amount, like a stripe across the brush head as though you are brushing you're teeth with it.
Now gently with the brush, stroke along the inner and outer length of the spring a few times, not too much or inevitabley you'll wipe it all off, again you get the idea. But be gentle you don't want to splatter it everywhere and spoil you're new wooden picture frame on the wall. This is much easier because theres an even amount of grease across the spring, a nice consistant layer and no sticky globs where you couldn't reach with your little finger. And only takes five mins'. Yee-haw :confused:

Also, as pointed out by Supermick, you could re-finish the ends of the spring where the spring guide and piston spacers meet in the cylinder. Although this would be better done beforehand, or you may be in a sticky situation with all the grease everywhere on the spring. :)

Thanks and good day/morning, happy shooting! :)

matthu61
25-05-2006, 07:14 PM
Sounds a bit overdoing, why just not put the spring in a bucket of thinner. All grease and residue will come out in no time!

franktheferret
06-06-2006, 03:37 AM
Fine, if you have a bath of thinners handy, but IPA is preferred, as it doesn't strip ALL oils from the metal, as thinners will do.

danche
07-12-2006, 06:38 PM
Another good tip which I do to my spring guns, is to go to a hobby shop and buy some steel shim then cut it to fit inside the piston, get a steel washer to fit inside the piston. crimp the end of the shim, insert it into the piston, put the steel washer in, then insert the spring inside

What this does is to give extra smooth cocking, and also cuts the recoil down slightly, and makes the spring noise quieter. It's amazing the difference it makes

danche
10-12-2006, 02:28 PM
Another quick tip for sping guns

Get some internal draft excluder, the foan one that goes around internal doors, take the action out of the stock and put some of the excluder every where the action touches the stock, and fit the action back

It makes a little shock absorber between the action and the stock

frank
10-12-2006, 06:07 PM
Good stuff Mick, but for a final degrease, I like to use Iso-propyly Alcohol. You can't easily get it these days, but ordinary Surgical Spirit is pretty good. It absorbs water much better than commercial-grade meths, and with no powdery residue.
Alan.

Acetone will absorb the water even better and degrease everything in sight but
it's quite volatile:D also wouldn't tend to use it on some plastics etc:eek:

Jamie Norton
07-02-2007, 01:58 PM
Isopropyl alcohol is generally available from pharmacies. It is also volatile (no smoking!) and will evaporate pretty quickly if you leave the lid off.

deadeye dick
23-03-2007, 07:12 PM
Isopropyl alcohol is generally available from pharmacies. It is also volatile (no smoking!) and will evaporate pretty quickly if you leave the lid off.

No you cant it is not available to the general public, my wife gets it because she lectures and teaches nails and beauty but I have tried to get some without success I believe you can buy it in the USA over the counter

neralcm
05-04-2007, 08:44 PM
Just bought a litre of the stuff from an electronics store, about £11 also available in a spray can (can't spell aerosol). Ideal for degreasing as it leaves no residue. Used it on my 97 to fit a V-Mach stage 1 kit, struggled a bit with heavy deposits but did the job.

Stuart

Paul Hudson
07-04-2007, 08:17 PM
No you cant it is not available to the general public, my wife gets it because she lectures and teaches nails and beauty but I have tried to get some without success I believe you can buy it in the USA over the counter
I get mine from Maplin - no problems with sale to the general public...

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=RE71N&DOY=7m4

Paul.

amsniper
08-04-2007, 07:16 PM
hi all - just reading through this thread- very good guide!

would someone who is doing this at the moment be kind enough to post up some pictures please!

id be really grateful!

pictures speak a thousand words.

many thanks

deadeye dick
21-04-2007, 11:44 PM
I get mine from Maplin - no problems with sale to the general public...

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Search.aspx?criteria=RE71N&DOY=7m4

Paul.

of to Maplin cheers for that paul....

amsniper
24-04-2007, 12:30 PM
hi all - id really appreciate some pictures of this guide if anyone is doing it at the moment!

cheers

digitaldwarf
26-04-2007, 09:18 PM
try this link (http://users.skynet.be/mario.severi/airgunning/TX200%20strip.html) its for a tx200 but should help explain things a bit better

baz
26-04-2007, 09:24 PM
Just get some brake cleaner from Halfords etc degreases anything but dont inhale it!

If you degrease the cylinder it will be too dry, better to use cellulose thinners on that gives around right amount of cleanliness

Theres no point in polishing springs, I shotblast them, the idea is to give the grease something to grip on to, polishing will cause the opposite

baz

amsniper
27-04-2007, 06:26 PM
many thanks there digitaldwarf!!

much appreciated.
regards amsniper

ratgunner
24-05-2007, 10:14 PM
No you cant it is not available to the general public, my wife gets it because she lectures and teaches nails and beauty but I have tried to get some without success I believe you can buy it in the USA over the counter

Are there any printers in your area??? look for lithographic printers, they buy IPA in er! bucket loads,
get friendly if you can, and ask for a small amount having told them what you want it for,
do not turn up pissed! waving a bottle of Paraguyan red as this results in second word Off!:D

MishKING
07-06-2007, 11:24 PM
Have used this excellent guide to tune both my hw99s and my very old mk1 hw80k.

When i tuned the hw80 i used paddy's dry lubricant and sprayed the entire compression chamber and piston and left to dry, i lubed the spring with maccari tar as there was a fair recoil and twang when shot before.

The result after the tune was breath taking! it was almost like i was shooting a different gun the recoil was almost non-existent just a nudge in the shoulder and there was also no spring twang at all! Excellent :D Although i do have a problem with the rifle running a tad hot (which im in the process of sorting!)

I little background info about my hw99s before i let you know how it shoots after the tune, i brought the rifle about a year and a half ago and it always shot well untill about 4 months ago when it wouldn't group at all. I was seriously thinking about getting rid of the rifle as it shot like a piece of crap and the whole barrel and action was rusted/pitted. After much thought i decided to keep the rifle as i liked the weight of the gun and for the fact that i would of got next to nothing for it second hand. So i thought i would tune it and see where i got!

Right once again i followed this excellent guide and proceded to tuning the gun, all went well if i little bit longer than the tune on the 80 as the 99s is a pain in the bum to strip. Once i had the rifle in pieces i striped and de-greased the internals and again used the dry lubricant on the compression chamber and piston. One thing that i had noticed was the the spring guide was a very good fit for the spring so i decided against using maccari tar on the spring/guide and used some moly grease instead.

I re-assembled the rifle and proceded to a couple of test shots, at this point i was in for a shock as the gun was completly transformed from a twangy dieselling crock to something really special! I honestly cant beleive how nice the hw99s is to shoot now (almost as nice as the 80! but not quite :D).

I also know that once i put a tin of pellets thorugh the 80 and 99 the lubes should settle into place and the preformance should get better again.

Heres a tip from a newbie: Wear some bloody gloves when using the macccari tar cause it sticks like sh*t to a blanket!

atb,
Greg

kash2001
09-06-2007, 07:02 PM
How do you untune a tuned air rifle ? I know it sounds an odd question but without cutting the spring or ordering a weaker spring, is there a way of de tuning the action.

As once the internals are polished and oil correctly i can't see any way of lowering the power.

If theres no other answer than the above then fine, just interested if theres some thoughts on how it could be done differently.

Cheers
Paul

99CLOMP
09-06-2007, 07:11 PM
if the gun has any washers between the rear guide and spring you can remove one or two, if not it may have a front spring guide this can be shortend or removed, or replaced with shorter lighter one, always have a look in side the piston between the front guide and piston front as some tuners will put a washer right at the front,there are lots of ways to reduce power on a tuned gun with out removing the TUNE:)

Hsing-ee
09-06-2007, 10:55 PM
How do you untune a tuned air rifle ? I know it sounds an odd question but without cutting the spring or ordering a weaker spring, is there a way of de tuning the action.

As once the internals are polished and oil correctly i can't see any way of lowering the power.

If theres no other answer than the above then fine, just interested if theres some thoughts on how it could be done differently.

Cheers
Paul

You can increase the dead space in front of the piston by drilling a hole in the piston face but it's a bit radical. Getting a different spring is the easier and more reversible option. You are talking about adjusting the power of the rifle rather than detuning it really, which is what you will need to do everytime the spring needs replacing anyways.

kash2001
11-06-2007, 11:19 AM
Thanks for the info guys not being a machinist the easiest route appears to be a weaker spring, or removing the wieghts if there are any a big help many thanks for that at least there are a few options :D

Thanks
Paul

LukeB
18-06-2007, 04:15 PM
Quick question re: IPA. There is some varnish on the blueing on the outside of the chamber on my FWB Sport where a previous owner has re-varnished the stock with the action still in place. Will the IPA remove the varnish do you think? I am guessing that the IPA won't react with the blueing in anyway and damage it???

joekid
24-06-2007, 11:52 PM
if you,ve got an HW 97/77,thats dieseling this is the way to stop it,get your steel shim make sure you cut it 5mm longer than it needs to be,so you can cut little v,s out of it like a crown, then it will when these v,s are bent inwards form a hole enough for the piston cocking rod ,to pass through, then should form a lip for the spring to keep in place until a few shots seats it into its housing, this shim /stops any unwanted moly getting back into the compression tube on firing, and keeps it where it should be,use this info as part of your tune,as just changing the factory lubes in the HW range of guns makes a big difference, even a simple wipe off the old/ wipe on the new,,molybdenum grease/lithium grease from a car auto spare shop very cheap////and good silicone oil (bisley) for poly seals(plastic type seals)knock your self out!!!

_cy_
14-08-2007, 10:44 AM
thanks for the IPA tip... yes it's sold over the counter in USA for cheap.

Gungeek
21-08-2007, 09:27 AM
... and good silicone oil (bisley) for poly seals(plastic type seals) ...

No, absolutely not! Anybody who is using oil and especially silicon oil in the compression chambers of spring guns has been badly informed. Regards ... Geek

Mike95
24-08-2007, 08:55 AM
I do not pretend to be an expert, but the more rifles I strip and the more I read (particularly Cardew, the Airgun from Trigger to Target), the more I realise just how important it is to size the piston seal to the cylinder. The fit between seal and cylinder seems to be the major factor with older guns, in establishing the ME. I recently stripped and cleaned/relubed an old Meteor with an "O" ring seal and it did not occur to me to try and size the "O" ring. The "O" ring was in good condition and I gave it a smear of molypaste before reassembling. The gun is fireing fine but is low on power. The spring is fine and the relube is fine, therefore must be the seal! I cannot see a nitrile/butyl "O" ring sizing down very much and Ged Finn on another thread suggested possibly fitting a smaller diameter "O" ring. Presumably an "O" ring could be sanded down. The Cardew book demonstrates just how critical the sliding fit between seal and cylinder is, but unfortunately this is just guess work without equipment to measure the sliding fit. Too tight and you have limited power...too slack and you have the same result. The joys of springer tuning!

Mike95

electric sheep
30-08-2007, 08:58 AM
Lower ME guns work better with parachute or semi parachute seals with sliding fit but FAC and higher ME springer's work more efficiently with higher swept volume solid seals with a tighter fit. Both need a good moly paste and a cross hatched compression wall to wet edge the seal to wall contact. It is not unusual to have a 30% range of power with the same spring set and different seals.

rehmk5
28-09-2007, 04:36 PM
Pardon the slight change of subject from strictly tuning, but I can't start a new thread.

Got a HW80/Beeman R1 question if you would:

Anyone have a 12 ft/lb HW80?

I have a FAC R1 (am here in Calif, USA) that does 7.9 gr Crosman Premier Lites about 1,010 fps.

Problem is, that though it groups accurately, it is hold sensitive in that if I switch from shooting standing with a rest, to sitting with a rest (artillery hold used both), the nice and tight groups move vertically.

At about 35 yds, my sitting with rest groups hit about 1.5 inches higher than my standing w/rest groups.

Can anyone comment on how a 12 ft/lb HW80 is about allowing different holds without the groups moving up/down?

Power is nice, but accuracy is better.

I'd get a 12 ft/lb kit for my Beeman R1 if that would make it more like my AA TX200 (which hits the mark, no matter how I hold it. Dittos for my Beeman R7 and HW55s).

Oddly enough, my Beeman R9 is more tolerant of varying the way I hold it and does not shift the groups like my R1.

Thanks, and good luck on keeping your airgun freedoms. Here in the USA we have the "Democratic" Party that would strip us of our firearms, airguns, water pistols, sharpened pencils, etc if they got the chance.

Robert Hamilton
California, USA

Paul Hudson
29-09-2007, 08:05 AM
Hi Robert :)

I found that dropping the power of a 12fpe HW80 down to 10.5fpe and using 7.9g pellets (Mosquitoes) made a huge difference. The rifle was much more tolerant of different holds, simply because it exhibited MUCH less recoil.

Also, putting the action into a heavier stock further reduced recoil. It's the only 80 I've shot that let me keep the crosshairs on the target throughout the firing cycle.

I've since sold the rifle to Adam77K on here, so it might be worth having a word with him... ;)

Paul.

darren m
01-10-2007, 12:33 PM
how can you add some weight to your rifle stock with out ruining it .

rehmk5
01-10-2007, 08:19 PM
Hi Paul,

Thanks much for your reply. Non-hold sensitive R1 at 10.5 ft/lbs M.E.? Very interesting. And with the factory weight (heavy) piston at that! Imagine!

I had a custom, lightweight piston made for my .177 FWB124 springer (factory piston: 10.5 oz & custom 124 piston: 8.5 oz), and put in a soft tune kit that had 7.9 gr JSB Exact Express 4.52 doing 770 fps (7.9 gr CPLites did 730 fps with same tune due to tighter fit). Hold sensitivity was reduced, but still had about 1" vertical difference between where the groups hit at 40 yds, sitting w/rest vs. standint w/rest.

Do you remember how the R1/hw80 was at 12 ft/lbs ME? I'm not sure I have anything to drop my R1 down to 10.5 ft/lbs, but I do have an old Jim Maccari 13 ft/lb kit I might be able to use to get down to an even 12 or 11 via no spacing.

Again, thanks for your comments.

Robert Hamilton

Paul Hudson
02-10-2007, 08:06 PM
Hi Robert.

At a shade under 12fpe it was tooth-jarring ;)

I dropped the power simply by shortening the spring slightly. I also sized the seal for a sliding fit - that is, the piston and seal would slide gently down the cylinder under its own weight, stopping if the transfer port was blocked.

Darren - I fitted it in a Sono Kembang GinB stock which added nicely to the weight.

However, one of my 97Ks sat in a brute of a walnut stock that I added around 5lbs of lead to - and you couldn't tell unless you tried to lift it ;). The simplest way was to fill a few lengths of 15mm copper water pipe with lead, drill a series of 15mm holes into the end of the stock under the butt pad, then slide the weighted pipes into place.

Paul.

rehmk5
02-10-2007, 10:51 PM
Teeth jarring at 12 ft/lbs? Well at about 17 ft/lbs, my R1 has a fast bit of kick. But with it moving groups vertically with differences in hold style, my R1 has been a closet queen.

Thanks for the detune tips.

I've been happy using my TX200's for small pest hunting at local farms/ranches. Got 54 California ground squirrels recently at a local cattle ranch. Rancher was going to poison them out (slow death by internal bleeding...takes 2/3 days to die sometimes), so I did my best to thin his pest population down to the point he doesn't go the poisoning route.

Robert Hamilton
Calif, USA

Paul Hudson
03-10-2007, 09:35 AM
Teeth jarring at 12 ft/lbs? Well at about 17 ft/lbs, my R1 has a fast bit of kick.
I found the HW80 to be a bit of an enigma ;)

At 17 to 18fpe they're sweet and smooth; at 12fpe they're "tolerable" but unpleasant. At 10.5fpe they become sweet and smooth again, and a genuine pleasure to use. With the lighter, 7.9g pellets, I was getting the same muzzle velocity as with 8.4g pellets at the higher power, so the trajectory and POI was exactly the same.

Have fun with your tinkering :)

Paul.

rehmk5
06-10-2007, 02:57 AM
Well, thanks for sharing your HW80 experiences Paul.
Much appreciated.
Few in the USA have experience with the lower power levels.
Robert Hamilton, Calif, USA
(now back to reading the news about our idiot politicians)

Paul Hudson
06-10-2007, 12:58 PM
(now back to reading the news about our idiot politicians)
Nothing different on your side of the pond then either... ;)

Let us know how you get on with the 80.

All the best,

Paul.

electric sheep
10-10-2007, 03:32 PM
Just squeezed mine up to 23fpe and it's fantastic, a real self contained FAC air gun with enough power to be worthwhile. Over 900 fps with light pellets and 800fps with 16g.

darren m
10-10-2007, 04:37 PM
e-sheep
whats the accuracy / recoil like at that level .

tomgun
11-10-2007, 01:35 PM
Hello Everyone


Could you please give me some advice. I have bought a second hand TX200HC and decided to fit an AA master service Kit.
I followed the tuning guide found it very easy to strip fit and reassemble the TX. But now it is only doing 7.5 ft lb.:confused:

Thanks Tom.

electric sheep
11-10-2007, 06:37 PM
Accuracy is superb and shoots as well as my 77, recoil is solid and mild straight back. More recoil than the 77 but not much and it's not hold sensitive.

tomgun
12-10-2007, 10:28 PM
you will have more luck with a reply if you start your own thread rather than hijacking someone elses

Sorry If I have upset anyone but I thought this was the Spring Gun Tuning Guide Thread.

Tom.

electric sheep
23-10-2007, 11:33 AM
Good moly does not burn unless you use excess, it's the only thing to use on seals. The surface of the comp tube must be honed for a wet edge if you want any performance over time.

Mike95
24-10-2007, 02:28 PM
The back block screws into the cylinder but there is no "cup like" depression as in the Webley Mark3 for instance, so that when reassembling under the pressure of the spring, I found the back of the spring guide kept slipping off the block and preventing the threads from engaging. I cut a piece of plastic waste pipe, 28mm a few inches longer than the block to act as a collar. This collar stops the rear of the spring guide slipping sideways and makes the reassembly much easier singlehanded.

Mike95

rehmk5
10-12-2007, 05:39 PM
Hi airgunners across the Atlantic. Below it a story of a farm/ranch pest control hunt I did recently. Sorry about sticking it here, but I don't have new thread priviledges.

Also, here in California, USA, we may do things differently enough to not be minding what would be necessary P's and Q's (manners and behavior) for English hunts. So I hope the Administrators will correct me if I am in any way, doing improper stuff per your customs and rules.

This story is about airgun hunting the local, large (tree squirrel-size) California ground squirrels, a pest species here.

Anyway, here is a story (one of my shorter ones) for your cheers&jeers consideration:

Robert Hamilton, California, USA Dec07

================================================== ==

FARM PEST HUNT REPORT: Only got 31 ground squirrels but had chances at almost 100.

SUMMARY:

My hunt yielded 31 adult California ground squirrels at the cattle grazing pastures, but I should have gotten a lot more.

DECEMBER HUNTING IN CALIFORNIA:

Last winter here in central, coastal California was dry. As was 2007 Spring, Summer and Fall. And now, it is December and still very little rain year to date.

But rain or not, around here, even in the Winter, if the day is a bit warm and sunny, some ground squirrels will be out of their holes. Today was no exception.

CATTLE GRAZING LANDS:

The landowner was not going to be around on the hunt day, but promised to leave the master key for the gates. The weather forecast was for yet another cold morning, warmer afternoon, but basically it was forecast to be a sunny day. More of the same weather we have been having all year. A blind, deaf and dumb weatherman could predict as well as long as he could speak and write the words “fair” and “sunny”.

The only rain we have had for almost the entire year was a light and brief rain of a couple weeks ago. That light rain shower had greened the round-topped hills around here. Green grass of a few inches in height gave some color to the previously straw-colored hills of over-grazed, parched and thirsty range grass flats and low, round-top hills.

A previous ground squirrel hunt here showed me that there was no reason to arrive too early, what with the ground squirrels staying underground until the sun warmed things up. And I had not gotten to bed until after 2AM anyway. Without coffee nor a Red Bull, I could expect to behave in a calm, measured manner for the hunt, if not comatose.

Regardless, I set the alarm clock for 6:30AM as I wanted to do some target shooting prior to the actual hunting.

6:30Am was far too late a setting for a serious crow hunting. It was about the right time to get up for a serious farm pest bird hunter on a local farm. But indeed early for late year ground squirrel hunting.

ARRIVAL AT THE GROUND SQUIRREL LANDS:

I did not arrive at the cattle grazing lands until about 8AM. But lingering coastal overcast hid the sun. The temperature was a bit cold, but putting on my ancient, tattered, 40 year old brown canvas duck hunting coat was plenty enough. I have never been one to toss clothing just because it was no longer new. Air was calm, as winter season mornings are generally here.

I drove in and parked the car by the wood plank-fenced cattle corral and loading chute. I opened the car door and stepped out.. Ah! But the air was fresh and clean. And put my hunting boot right into a fresh dog turd. Ick!

And not just any dog turd. This one was not just fresh, but real big. And long.

Either this testament to canine dining came from a large dog who had been over consuming. Or a small dog that was now walking funny and still sore. For the rest of the day and over the course of a couple miles of walkabouting, I never saw another dog pile.

Lucky me.

My boot stunk for hours.

The car was my wife’s. It was nice and clean. My wife has a very keen nose. Oops.

No squirrels out, but a couple hundred blackbirds and starlings sat on the plank and post cattle corral fences. An earlier ground squirrel hunt here had shown that 9AM was when the ground squirrels here, started emerging from their den holes to forage and sun bath. But my plan was to put my too early arrival to good use. I had brought along my .177 Beeman R1 break barrel springer to punch some paper with.

My R1 was one I have had for quite a few years, but have not used for years. It is my closet queen second in hunting uselessness only to my FWB124.

rehmk5
10-12-2007, 05:43 PM
BEEMAN R1 AT 1,024 FPS MACCARI KIT, WITH CPLITES:

Years ago, I had put a Maccari full power kit in my R1 and after settling-in, was getting a consistent 1,000 fps power level. Bragging power. Magnumitus Club membership level power.

In fact, it last chronographed at 1,024 fps with 7.9 gr Crosman Premier Lites (cplites), fingertip seated. Good groups too. With only my usual folding camp chair and camera stand rest shooting range setup, the R1 put five cplites into a 2.0” ctc group, at 100 yards. Trajectory was fairly flat. Firing action was fast and crisp. Like a gas ram in fast, twang-less action. Really great! What more could I ask for?

Well, how about field accuracy? I had repeatedly taken this full power R1 on farm pest hunts for ground squirrels, feral pigeons and crows. But despite having a carefully done, every 5 yds, from 5 to 100 yds, trajectory plot based on actual shooting sessions at the range, using a three point sitting rest, when actually hunting with the R1, it rarely hit where the trajectory plot said it should. Making it pretty useless as a farm pest hunter.

Three point sitting rested shooting is when my right elbow (I’m right handed) is resting on the padded arm of my folding camp chair and left/forearm-holding hand is resting on the foam pad on top my camera stand rest.

Two point sitting rested shooting is when the right elbow is floating (in the air/no support) and the left/forearm-holding hand is resting on the top of my camera stand rest.

Two point standing rested shooting is when I am standing. The adjustable camera stand rest is adjusted higher to let me stand and comfortably rest my left/forearm hand rest on the stand’s foam pad, and my right elbow is floating/no support.

Generally, I farm pest hunt all my shots using a 2 point standing rest position. Hitting as small of a target as the vitals of a starling at 40 yds or a ground squirrel at 60 yds requires I have a steady rest.

But the R1 at over 1,000 fps was too hold sensitive to be a successful hunter. Too many times, I would completely miss the ground squirrel at 30 or more yards because while my trajectory plot told me where the poi (point of impact) was with a 3 point sitting rest, but the poi was an inch or more off when shooting with a 2 point standing rest. Or a 2 point sitting rest.

Though that was still better than my old FWB124 which I would zero and trajectory plot with a 3 point sitting rest, then drag along the camp chair and camera stand rest and take only 3 point sitting rest shots while actually hunting and still see sudden vertical poi shifts of a couple inches at 45 or so yards.

BEEMAN R1 AT 945 FPS WITH 7.9 GR CPLITES:

A few years back, Maccari had been working with what he called “Aussie wire” or words similar. As I recall, he had gotten good results with this special and expensive wire in RWS sidelevers. At my request, Maccari had made me a kit using this interesting spring wire for my R1. It gave me about 950 fps with my R1 and cplites and I later put the 1,000+ fps Maccari kit back in the R1 and stuck the R1 950 fps Aussie wire kit away. I liked the 1,000+ fps JM kit because it was a short spring, 28 coils (?). So short, there was so little preload that I did not need a spring compressor. Really convenient.

But now, I pulled the JM 1,000+ fps kit and re-installed the Aussie wire tune kit. Very nice. Smooth and crisp action. A longer spring so my Randy Gunn model spring compressor was needed to install. I was getting initially about 920 fps with cplites, but soon it built up to about 940 to 950 fps. But a range session showed me that at 60 yds, the 950 fps Aussie wire kit was giving me about one inch vertical poi difference between a 2 pt sitting w/rest hold and a 2 pt standing w/rest hold, at 60 yds.

I define hold sensitivity as when varying the hold varies the poi. And my minimum test for non-hold sensitivity is that the gun at least shoots the same poi both 2 pt sitting w/rest and 2 pt standing w/rest.

So the JM Aussie wire kit was a hold-sensitivity improvement. But still had some hold sensitivity. Plinkers and informal target shooters/hunters may not view hold sensitivity as an issue. Serious farm pest hunters may beg to differ.

BEEMAN R1 AT 875 FPS WITH 7.9 GRAIN CPLITES (MACCARI 13 FT/LB SPRING):

Maybe I could have worked with the R1 using the Aussie wire kit. But a few years back, Maccari had offered a 13 ft/lb muzzle energy tune kit for the R1 and I had bought it and never tried it. Tony, of the Doug&Tony farm pest hunting team’s postings about his detuned airgun successes inspired me to follow in his leadership, and finally try the JM R1 13 ft/lb ME tune kit. After all, if Tony can detune that springer monster, the RWS350 down to 9 or 10 ft/lbs ME and be pleased, then I could surely try the 13 ft/lb Maccari kit.

The 13 ft/lb JM R1 tune kit, how did it work?

Well, the JM 13 ft/lb spring was a lllooonnnggg spring of heavy wire just like the JM full power short spring. O.D. was slightly bigger too. Big enough that the spring was too big to fit into my 12.6 oz Venom Lazaglide R1 piston. Lucky me, I still had my buttoned 11.9 oz R1 factory piston. The factory R1 piston had a slightly bigger I.D. than the Venom piston and the JM 13 ft/lb spring went in without a millimeter to spare.

I needed a piston seal on the factory R1 piston and put one of Maccari’s precison-made orange synthetic R1 piston seals on the piston.

Then, after a very light coat of JM velocity tar on the spring sides and outside, and a slight amount of Beeman moly grease on the white JM synthetic guides, the R1 went back together. Randy Gunn spring compressor a must.

650 FPS WITH CPLITES, WHAT?@##@!:

Ok, cocking was easier but 7.9 gr cplites were only giving me about 650 fps. With a 13 ft/lb spring? What was going on here?!

rehmk5
10-12-2007, 05:47 PM
UNDERSIZED JM R1 PISTON SEAL AND OVERSIZED JM R1 REAR GUIDE;

Well, the Maccari piston seal was undersized. Nice seal. Harder material than the soft nylon, parachute HW factory piston seals, but at least in this R1, definitely undersized. Without the spring in the R1, the Maccari sealed piston all but moved with simple tilting the compression tube up and down. Gravity enough to move the piston. Oops. Better go back to the factory R1 piston seal.

Another problem. When I had installed the Maccari 13 ft/lb tune kit, the base of the rear guide was a real tight fit, but as I was using the spring compressor, I did not realize how tight a fit. Well, it was so tight a fit, that even as I unscrewed the R1’s end block, the 13 ft/lb spring lacked the power to push the end of the rear spring guide out of the R1 compression tube. What I should have done would have been to try to insert the tune kit into the R1 compression tube backwards. That is, rear guide base first. That would have detected the over-sized rear guide base.

Heroic measures finally dislodged the JM 13 spring guide out of the R1 compression tube by partly unscrewing the end cap and then violently and strongly (with the trigger block out of the gun), slamming the piston against the base of the rear guide in a repeated hammering action. Eventually, I was able to hammer the JM tune kit rearwards enough that I then could take a large, rectangular cross section gunsmith screwdriver and jam it into the rear guide hole the piston stem passes through, put a wrench on the screwdriver shaft, and with a lot of effort, screw the JM rear guide out the threaded end of the R1 compression tube.

Amazingly, the R1’s barrel was not bent and the R1 cocking shoe was not damaged beyond use. More amazing was that I didn’t break the JM rear guide.

Another point of interest in the Maccari R1 rear guide was that it was so tight on the spring, that upon firing, the spring was unable to fully expand. The coils still on the rear guide were noticeably still partly compressed while on the forward portion of the 13 ft/lb spring, the coils were fully expanded. Talk about a tune kit that was made tight enough to need a “wear in” period. No spring twang was going to happen due to loose guides on this baby!

Lucky me, I had a spare R1 factory piston seal and could dump the JM piston seal and install a factory seal. How did that affect chronograph performance?

WVED (ED CANOLES) GUIDES:

Well, first things first. I had a spare JM 13 ft/lb spring and just for fun, sent the mis-fitting JM 13 ft/lb tune kit and a spare JM 13 ft/lb spring to WVED (Ed Canoles the custom piston crafter). Ed makes his own guides, though is more of a Beeman R9 guy than a R1 guy. But I hoped he could lathe the Maccari rear guide down to size and also, due to his precision work and reasonable prices, make me a guide set for the spare 13 ft/lb spring while he was at it.

Which, WVED did. He turned the job around and the mailman delivered a box from
WVED within a couple weeks of my original mailing.

WVED was not able to remove the JM spring off the JM rear guide, so he was not able to lathe down the JM rear guide. I did it later the clumsy and less precise way holding the JM tune kit in one hand and a file in the other and filing away on the O.D. of the rear guide base, while slowly turning the kit. In about an hour, I had the JM kit where it would fit snug and still be removable.

But the delrin/steel base WVED guide set was so pretty, precise and of “can’t pull the spring off but coils expand fully on shooting” tight, that I wanted to try WVED’s work first. The filed down JM kit could wait for later.

I put the R1 back together, factory piston with the factory parachute piston seal on it with a little Beeman moly grease on the sides, and after some warm up shooting, chronied I the R1 with the 13 ft/lb kit again.

13 FT/LBS ME WITH THE 13 FT/LB ME MACCARI SPRING AND WVED GUIDES:

With the JM 13 ft/lb ME spring and its WVED guides, instantly, I was getting about 875 fps with 7.9 gr cplites, which was about what one should expect out of the kit, that is about 13.4 ft/lbs M.E.

Ok, all was well. Firing was still crisp but more sedate. Cocking effort was more like my Beeman R9 now. My R9 having similar power, so that made sense.

R1 LESS HOLD SENSITIVE AT 13 FT/LBS:

At the range, the 13 ft/lb JM/WVED kitted R1 was pleasant to shoot and for sure, easier to cock. Groups were reasonable, both with 7.9 gr cplites and 8.4 gr JSB Exact 4.52 domes. For instance, despite about a 15 mph cross wind, the 13 ft/lb R1 put five JSB Exacts into a 1.0” ctc group at 60 yds with using a 2 pt sitting with rest hold.

But the wind was blowing too much to allow creation of a trajectory plot chart that I could have confidence in. So the R1 awaits a calm air, 5 to 80 yd trajectory plotting session at the range. But there is hope. Time will tell more if I finally had a good hunter in my Beeman R1.


BACK TO THE HUNT:

Having arrived before the ground squirrels emerged this hunt morning, I took some time to test the 13 ft/lb R1 for hold sensitivity. The air this early in the morning was almost dead calm. So I set out a cardboard box with three one inch black ink marker-drawn bulls on it, at a Bushnell laser rangefinder-measured 60 yds. I shot sitting in my inexpensive aluminum Costco, folding camp chair. The one with padded arm rests.

I shot three ten pellet groups at 60 yds. One group was 3 pt sitting rested; one was 2 pt sitting rested; and one was 2 pt standing rested. At 60 yds, the 2 pt sitting and 2 pt standing had the same poi. The 3 pt sitting rested group poi was about 2/3” lower.

9:30AM and it was time to stop the target session. The sun was out. The overcast was breaking up and using my Bushnell 6x25mm Custom Compact binoculars, I could see a few ground squirrels dotting the rain-greened, flat lands of the fenced cattle pastures. Not many, but enough to be worth a try for.

The R1 went back into the cheap, black plastic hard case and back into the car. I was getting a late start anyway and these late in the year days are short. No time to experiment nor play.

So out came the .177 AirArms TX200 Mk3. A very good springer for ground squirrel hunting. Hold insensitive. It cocks without tiring me, is accurate, and a short, handy yet heavy and stable springer. Pre-hunt, right after a fresh barrel clean (cplites being a bore-fouling pellet), it chronied 7.9 gr cplites at 905 fps. Later, post hunt the same day, that evening, I got 880 fps. It had a Maccari TX200 tune kit installed approx. 500 pells ago. Still settling in? Or was it the difference between a dirty bore and a clean with a light oil coated bore?

Regardless, I like my TX200’s also because CHAIRGUN, the computer generated trajectory plotting software matches my real life, actual shooting session trajectory plots. Wish I could say the same for my Weihrauch/Beeman break barrel springers though.

ALL DAY IN THE SAME 20 ACRES:

The cattle pastures I spent the entire, short December day hunting, were only an estimated 20 acres. The big, adult California ground squirrels were thinly scattered, but there were enough to keep me busy. All day. Especially so because the weather conditions changed.

CURSED BY WIND:

I had thought I would have all day with calm or low winds. While summers tend to be calm mornings and windy afternoons, winter days here are often enough calm or low winds only, all day. Not today.

The hunt started out with my cherished dead calm wind. So calm that after my morning Beeman R1 target session and before I put it away, I even took one shot with the R1 at a starling mixed in with a hundred or so blackbirds, the starling sitting on top a tall, wood, power line post. Distance was about 35 yards.

At the R1’s shot, the starling flew off, angling down, hanging a leg. It would have been more of a slam dunk shot with my Beeman R7. I was more practiced with the R7. Goes to show that 6.5 ft/lbs with a precise trajectory plot chart beats 13 ft/lb R1’s without. Definitely the R1 needed more range time and more work on a trajectory plot.

With the TX200, I hunted in a leisurely walkabout manner up and down the cattle pastures, covering about 1/3 mile up and then hunting back again. I spent most of my time in the middle of the pasture flatlands where a small rise and est.15 foot high cut bank in the side of a low hill touching one part of the pasture, harbored a small squirrel colony of about 40 squirrels.

I shot with a 2 pt rest off the Samsonite adjustable camera stand rest, sometimes sitting, sometimes standing. Rains forecast but the ground still dry. The squirrels were kind of spooky. I found that after a few shots, they went down their holes and after about 30-40 minutes the colony squirrels still had not re-emerged. Someone had probably been firearm hunting them recently to spook them this much.

Not good.

The wind was my worst problem though. Squirrel spook distance was never beyond 70 yards and the TX200 was good to 70 yds. In calm air.

But I was not getting the calm air I needed for longer shots. The wind unexpectedly became strong and brisk out of the west and stayed about 20 mph all day. I saw maybe 90 squirrels total. I was only getting about one in three that I tried for. I had hoped to pretty much clear this pasture of most of its squirrels today.

I failed.

By 3:30PM, the hills to the west were casting shadows over the cattle pasture. The squirrels disappearance once the shadows shaded the pasture fields made today a shortened hunt. The day ended up with only 31 ground squirrels.

I got home early.

Better luck next time?

Robert Hamilton, California, along the Pacific Ocean coast
1 Dec 07

phipps479
22-01-2008, 08:24 PM
You seem to be very knowledgeable on the subject, I wonder if you could help me .I need some instructions on how to change a main spring on an old Webley Typhoon barrel over lever .22 pistol, hope you can help .Thanks in advance.
Thanks to Hsing-ee for the following :-


Tuning The Older Springer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ALL WORK DONE USING THIS INFORMATION IS AT YOUR OWN RISK - APPLY COMMONSENSE TO YOUR WORK AND SEEK ASSISTANCE FROM A QUALIFIED GUNSMITH IF YOU GET OUT OF YOUR DEPTH. Use a spring compressor and be careful!

If you want your old or new-to-you old spring-piston rifle to give you its best then you could try the following tune-up. It takes a bit of patience and elbow-grease and dosen't involve any drastic modifications but if you follow it carefully your rifle should shoot sweetly afterwards for a good long time.

The following is a basic tune for spring-piston rifles which was common in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The idea is to make the rifle as smooth and consistent as possible, and does not involve modifying the rifle in terms of piston weights, top hats, etc, that is for the more advanced airgunsmith. I used this on a Feinwerkbau Sport recently and it would cut 7mm groups at 25 yards from a rest, and in my 30 year old BSA Meteor which does 10ft/lbs and 20mm groups with a standard spring so it seems to work OK. The guide refers to a rifle with a leather washer, obviously don't soak the washer in silicone oil if it is of a synthetic material, just wipe a small drop of SM50 over it before assembly.

For the full works you will need:

new spring
new piston washer and buffers if fitted
new breech washer

Can of Dri-Slide (or Gun Slide from Chambers) or tube Molykote GN paste
Abbey LT2 molybdenum grease (J.S.Ramsbottoms has this)
Abbey SM50 oil (J.S.Ramsbottoms has this)
Abbey Silicone oil (J.S.Ramsbottoms has this)

Solvol Autosol metal polish ( a car accessories shop like Halfords or a hardware store)
Methylated spirit or white spirit
Very fine abrasive paper
Cheap toothbrush (unused)
18” length of broomhandle
Couple of packets unused ‘J’ cloths or similar

The idea of the tune is to make sure the bearing surfaces are smooth and appropriately lubricated, with the aim of consistent mechanical action giving consistent velocities without dieselling and so giving good accuracy. The molybdenum in the Dri-Slide binds to steel giving a very slippery hard surface.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL THAT YOU CLEAN ALL THE PARTS COMPLETELY AFTER POLISHING THEM WITH ABRASIVE PAPER OR METAL POLISH. Use newspaper under the parts as you work and throw them out as they are soiled. Have a clean area to put your clean parts and don’t do ‘dirty’ work next to them. Be careful with naked flames and the hair-drier, the methylated spirit and the carrier element in the Dri-Slide ar e both highly inflammable. WORK IN A WELL VENTILATED ROOM OR WORKSHOP.

1. Place the new piston washer in a pellet tin or similar receptacle and pour over Abbey silicone oil to cover it completely. Leave to soak overnight.

2. Disassemble the rifle, taking care to store small parts so they don’t get lost.

3. THE COMPRESSION CHAMBER

A. Degrease all the parts and the inside of the compression chamber using the meths. The broomhandle should have a 3” slot cut in one end so that a stip of J cloth can be slid in and wrapped round to give a cleaning head. Be very thorough, and keep using fresh strips of J-cloth until they start coming out completely clean. Check that the transfer port is clear by using a non-metalisc implement like a cocktail stick and examine carefully by eye. Use the toothbrush and methys to clean the threads that the rear cylinder block screws into. Dry the inside of the compression chamber using further J-cloth strips.

B. If you feel it necessary you can remove the sharp edges on the inside and outside of the cocking-slot. Pack the compression chamber with cloth and using a spatula or table-knife with the fine abrasive paper wrapped around it smooth the inner and out edges of the slot. Don’t overdo this, just remove the sharp EDGES from the slot. Degrease again and be meticulous about removing all the metal filings and abrasive dust using methys and J-cloths. Remove the packing cloth and degrease again until you are sure all the dust has been removed.

C. Using a hair-drier, warm the compression tube by blowing hot air inside and outside the tube body. When it is warm, pour a tablespoon-size amount of Dri-Slide into the compression chamber and roll the chamber around so that the liquid coats all of the surface of the chamber and also further back in the area above the cocking slot. Be careful not to lose all the Drislide out of the tranfer port! The chamber can be left to dry for a couple of hours or overnight. Alternatively, rub in some Molykote GN paste onto the whole surface of the inside of the compression chamber.

D. When you are ABSOLUTELY SURE IT IS DRY, use a tightly-wound long piece of J-cloth on the broomhandle, burnish the surface of the compression chamber thoroughly. Alot of the Dri-Slide will appear to come off, but it is leaving behind a layer so dont worry.

4. THE PISTON

After disassembling the piston, degrease it inside and out as above, using meths and J cloths. Polish any scratches on the piston body out using the fine abrasive paper, using a rotary action i.e. turning the piston on its axis and holding the paper still so the mark is polished out in a ring around the piston. Polish the whole of the outside of the piston with Solvol Autosol, particularly the back of the piston where it makes metal-to-metal contact with the cylinder wall. Use a J-cloth and to apply and polish off the Solvol. Carefully polish the surface of the bent (part of the piston which engages the sear) with Solvol on a J-cloth drawn tight over something flat and rigid (e.g. a small file). Degrease and clean with meths. Heat the piston up with the hair-drier and coat the inside AND the outside of the piston with Dri-Slide as with the compression chamber, except you don’t need to polish it in afterwards, just leave the coating as it is.

5. THE SPRING

Take a peice of the fine abrasive paper and place it on a very flat surface e.g. a suitably strong piece of glass or steel plate. Polish polish the flat ends on the paper until they are shiny. You can make this a mirror finish if you then polish the ends using Solvol Autosol on cloth stretched over the plate. Degrease and clean the spring carefully afterwards.

6. THE PISTON GUIDE

Degrease inside and out and polish out scratches using a rotary action using the fine abrasive paper and then Solvol Autosol to give a shiney surface. If you like, pad a vice and use a file to remove the sharp edges on the base of the guide. Degrease and clean as above. Make sure you clean the passage through the middle of the guide and get rid of any old grease and dust in there.


ASSEMBLY

1. Take the piston washer that has been soaking in the silicone oil and squeeze it dry using a J-cloth. Fit it to the piston, avoid getting any lubricant on the screw/bolt attaching it to the piston body. Smear a couple of drops of SM50 around the base of the leather washer (away from its face).

2. Take a lollipop stick and smear a stripe of LT2 grease about 1” in width around the back of the piston (trigger end), be fairly generous.

3. Fit the piston back into the compression chamber, easing the piston head into the chamber gently. It may be a little bit swollen at this point, but persist in easing it in and don’t use hammering or excessive force. Line up the cocking slot in the piston with the one in the compression chamber.

4. Using a small pad of J-cloth, apply a thin smear of LT2 grease to the outside of the spring and a generous layer to one flat end. Fit the spring into the piston with the greased end forwards.

5. Apply a liberal amount of LT2 grease to the outside and INSIDE of the spring guide and fit it to the end of the spring.

6. Smear a little LT2 grease on the threads of the back-block and use this to compress the spring and reassemble.

7. Reassemble the rest of the rifle using LT2 grease on all the main points of wear. Apply SM50 oil to the trigger by dropping it into the mechanism, allow the excess to drip out before reassembly. Replace the breech washer with a new one, and clean the barrel in the normal way. Make sure all the stock screws are tightened appropriately (not too loose, not too tight).


The rifle may be a little bit smokey the first ten or twenty shots but should then settle down to be very consistent. All that is needed in terms of lubrication after this is a drop of two of SM50 at the joints occassionally, and once every 1500 pellets or so a drop of SM50 *BEHIND* the piston washer, which can be done by removing the stock and putting the oil in through the cocking slot. Leather washers can take a long time to bed in, so I recommend doing alot of plinking, like two or three tins of pellets, before the gun reaches its peak. Then you should be able to shoot the rifle for thousands of pellets without doing anything more than slip a new spring in occasionally and a sparing use of SM50.

CAUTION: Do NOT over-lubricate. Stick to the amounts indicated here - less is more, especially with polished bearing surfaces.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hsing-ee
25-01-2008, 01:53 AM
I am not familiar with stripping the Webley Tempest/Typhoon/Hurricane series, but I believe it is quite simple and actually Webley used to sell them with information on how to do this.

I suggest you post a question on the General section, asking for advice on stripping and reassembling your pistol, and then follow the advice in the tuning guide. Someone is sure to send you a copy of the stripping manual.

The pistol you have is now a collector's item as they are no longer made, and also they are very nice to shoot so they are worth keeping in good order.

Have fun!

This thread covers most of the strip...

http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2416711

Hsing-ee
08-06-2008, 10:04 PM
If you want to replace a leather washer with a high-quality plastic one, then Jim Maccari sells some which might fit your rifle and they are inexpensive.


http://www.airguns.citymax.com/page/page/251485.htm


Alternatively, T.R.Robb makes PTFE ones which may or may not be an improvement on the original.

http://www.trobb.f9.co.uk/

chrisarvor
09-06-2008, 04:57 PM
hi
I havent stipped an airgun down since i used to do my Diana model 16 which was just after the ice age!!!!!
I bought a Boxer spring and new piston seal and breach washer and the washer behind the piston for my old BSA Mercury mk2
I actualy thought they has sent me the wrong piston washer as it wasnt leather!!!!!!!
so i stipped it down and put some wet an dry paper 1000 grade on a broom stick and sprayed WD40 in there and gently cleaned out the air chamber.
When i put i back together i nicked the O ring for the piston so i looked in my o ring box and found a near as dam it one and put it all back together but first washing out the air chamber with some WD 40 . And putting some down the barrel.
Eventualy got the bugger back together without any spring compresser and its superb.Quite a super little gun.
Now i dont understand why your all saying dont use this or clean with that if it works the old fashion way why change it????

Hsing-ee
09-06-2008, 09:47 PM
Now i dont understand why your all saying dont use this or clean with that if it works the old fashion way why change it????

Because if you use WD40 to lubricate your BSA Mercury it will diesel like a farting elephant, ruin the spring and give inconsistent power and accuracy and have a short life. WD40 isn't a lubricating oil, it is a very volatile penetrating solvent for freeing rusted components and for dispersing water. After it has finished exploding in your compression tube, it will evaporate off and your gun will be running dry. You will need a new seal and a spring in only a few months.

Lots of people have used the Tuning Guide to make their guns better. Also, it is a tune that has been in use for the last 29 years so I think that it counts as 'the old fashioned way' at least as much as scrubbing with abrasive paper and WD40.

If you follow the instructions you will have a nice, smooth accurate rifle that will last a long time and will be a pleasure to shoot. Lubing with WD40 and changing the spring and seal will give a workable gun, but it won't give anywhere near the best performance it is capable of. If you HAD followed the guide then you would have smoothed out the cocking slot and you would not have knicked your seal.

Read it and try the guide, you might be pleasantly suprised!

Marzy
11-09-2008, 02:06 PM
Just like to say that I read through lots of tips from this site before attempting to strip down and rebuild my Webley Mk3 (many thanks to all who contributed). the gun had been dry stored under the stairs since the late 1970s with just the odd wipe down and pellet through it every few years but, was seriously underpowered and all the grease had solidified.

I stripped down every moving part, gave the barrel a good pull through and light lube, degreased and cleaned everything before applying new grease and lube, fitted a new spring and PTFE seal which took a little wate with all the wet and dry rubbing but, now moves up and down the cylinder with gentle but firm finger pressure and sounds like a bicycle pump. Put motorcycle chain lube on the new spring to dampen it down while I sealed the loading port barrel with MB grease and ensured a thin smear of gasket sealant went around the edge of the cover plate. With the loading port in the "load" position, working the underlever cocking arm back to the point where it almost engages the trigger, and then letting it go back again will result in a pleasant Pssst once the loading port is flipped back to the firing position, indicatin a good seal.

All in all the gun is now rejuvenated, much more powerful and smooth and was instantly shooting around 2" higher than the scope had previously been set for at 25 yards although it has taken around 100 pellets to start grouping decently as it was obviously bedding in.

nightstalker
12-10-2008, 07:40 PM
hi guys,i have been helping a freind today putting in a gas fire,looking for some bits in his shed i spotted a gun case in the corner.he said it was a air gun,i said can i have a look he said yes,so i took it out of the bag it is a webly vulcan.22.it`s been neglected to say the least,stock needs a revarnish,the bluing is pitted with rust,but the barrel bore was clean no rust which surprised me,it has a trigger guard,i think it might be 20 years old but thats a guess,it also had iron sights a one time,i gave it a clean took the crap scope of and put one of my own on it,but i could not get it on the target,when i break the barrel it has bright metal one side and i was wondering weather it had been dropped and the barrel had took a knock,it has a hell of a twang when i fire it,is it worth taking as part payment for the gas fire,can i get barrels moderrators ect, for it if i take it on.any help would be great.
best regards.

Firestorm
12-10-2008, 08:07 PM
is anyone writing all this down?

They could bring out a book........;)

Russ

BONNIE & CLYDE
12-10-2008, 08:13 PM
big thanks to hsing-ee for this post good old tuning used this method for years myself good to see somebody had the time to do this to help others ill take my hat off to the guy :)
in modern day there are many variations but the basics are still the same
silicon oil best place for it is
the bin:D

joffy
12-10-2008, 08:24 PM
is there any need to hone the cylinder in my hw80 ?

Hsing-ee
12-10-2008, 09:16 PM
is there any need to hone the cylinder in my hw80 ?

Unless it has been damaged and scored, it would be best to leave it alone. Weihrauch do a fine job at the factory, no benefit will come of re-honing the cylinder. If you are having piston tightness issues, try sizing the piston seal. This can be done by spinning it and touching it with very fine abrasive paper. Get a V-Mach, Bonny & Clyde or Maccari tuning kit if you wish to finesse the performance of this truly excellent rifle. Be careful though as it is easy to put miles over the legal power limit.

6519bushman
10-01-2009, 10:28 PM
If you are able to strip the gun, clean the piston and chaimber with hot soapy water (hotter the better) so there is no more grease or oil. Pay very close attention to the piston seal removing it carefully and again cleaning it with hot soapy water. Once you have done this clean the parts once more with pure alcohol as a final precaution against grease and oil. At this point you can check the cylinder for scoring, if its bad you may wish to have it polished. Assemble the piston into the cylinder using a silicon based lubricant on the piston seal (use very sparingly the lightest of wipes with finger, almost undetectable) The next step is possibly a little more difficult. Take a look at the spring....... wipe with a rag removing all the grease and oil (not to the same standard as the other parts mentioned. Then look at the spring guide. If its plastic and loose fitting, have one made out of silver steel so that it fits with no play! (make sure you accomodate the spring guide in the piston as this runs through the other guide and engages the trigger sear, HW80 that is) into the spring. This is one of the secrets to Dampening twang. There may be after market parts you can source for this. There used to be a kit out there with an ox square sectioned spring and a solid steel guide. Also supplied was a replacement piston seal and lubricants. I doubt if this is available as it would come under the new VCR act. However it is a very simple job for a competant enginear to make one for you. Just dont! fit a bigger spring! This tight tollerance piston guide along with a carefull application of moly grease from a car parts dealer dampens and smooths out the operation of the piston. DO NOT GO MAD WITH THE GREASE as it will make its way into the piston chamber when you cock the gun, and mess up what you have tried to attchieve, and will make you gun exceed 12lb muzzel energy. The next step is to clean you barrel with a copper brush then a nylon brush. Once you have run these brushes through the bore several times use a solvent to remove the lead build up and repeat until there are no marks on a cloth pulled through the bore. I the use Alcohol to finally remove any trace of oil. Job done. Reasemble the gun. And run it in with a tin of pellets, then recheck it with a chrono. Any sign of ignition or a burning smell, you have either not cleaned all the parts adiquately or have used accessive grease on the spring.

Good luck if you get it right you should have a accurate quiet consistant gun that should not need servicing again for thousands of rounds.

6519bushman
10-01-2009, 10:29 PM
If you are able to strip the gun, clean the piston and chaimber with hot soapy water (hotter the better) so there is no more grease or oil. Pay very close attention to the piston seal removing it carefully and again cleaning it with hot soapy water. Once you have done this clean the parts once more with pure alcohol as a final precaution against grease and oil. At this point you can check the cylinder for scoring, if its bad you may wish to have it polished. Assemble the piston into the cylinder using a silicon based lubricant on the piston seal (use very sparingly the lightest of wipes with finger, almost undetectable) The next step is possibly a little more difficult. Take a look at the spring....... wipe with a rag removing all the grease and oil (not to the same standard as the other parts mentioned. Then look at the spring guide. If its plastic and loose fitting, have one made out of silver steel so that it fits with no play! (make sure you accomodate the spring guide in the piston as this runs through the other guide and engages the trigger sear, HW80 that is) into the spring. This is one of the secrets to Dampening twang. There may be after market parts you can source for this. There used to be a kit out there with an ox square sectioned spring and a solid steel guide. Also supplied was a replacement piston seal and lubricants. I doubt if this is available as it would come under the new VCR act. However it is a very simple job for a competant enginear to make one for you. Just dont! fit a bigger spring! This tight tollerance piston guide along with a carefull application of moly grease from a car parts dealer dampens and smooths out the operation of the piston. DO NOT GO MAD WITH THE GREASE as it will make its way into the piston chamber when you cock the gun, and mess up what you have tried to attchieve, and will make you gun exceed 12lb muzzel energy. The next step is to clean you barrel with a copper brush then a nylon brush. Once you have run these brushes through the bore several times use a solvent to remove the lead build up and repeat until there are no marks on a cloth pulled through the bore. I the use Alcohol to finally remove any trace of oil. Job done. Reasemble the gun. And run it in with a tin of pellets, then recheck it with a chrono. Any sign of ignition or a burning smell, you have either not cleaned all the parts adiquately or have used accessive grease on the spring.

Good luck if you get it right you should have a accurate quiet consistant gun that should not need servicing again for thousands of rounds.

BONNIE & CLYDE
15-01-2009, 12:37 AM
If you are able to strip the gun, clean the piston and chaimber with hot soapy water (hotter the better) so there is no more grease or oil. Pay very close attention to the piston seal removing it carefully and again cleaning it with hot soapy water. Once you have done this clean the parts once more with pure alcohol as a final precaution against grease and oil. At this point you can check the cylinder for scoring, if its bad you may wish to have it polished. Assemble the piston into the cylinder using a silicon based lubricant on the piston seal (use very sparingly the lightest of wipes with finger, almost undetectable) The next step is possibly a little more difficult. Take a look at the spring....... wipe with a rag removing all the grease and oil (not to the same standard as the other parts mentioned. Then look at the spring guide. If its plastic and loose fitting, have one made out of silver steel so that it fits with no play! (make sure you accomodate the spring guide in the piston as this runs through the other guide and engages the trigger sear, HW80 that is) into the spring. This is one of the secrets to Dampening twang. There may be after market parts you can source for this. There used to be a kit out there with an ox square sectioned spring and a solid steel guide. Also supplied was a replacement piston seal and lubricants. I doubt if this is available as it would come under the new VCR act. However it is a very simple job for a competant enginear to make one for you. Just dont! fit a bigger spring! This tight tollerance piston guide along with a carefull application of moly grease from a car parts dealer dampens and smooths out the operation of the piston. DO NOT GO MAD WITH THE GREASE as it will make its way into the piston chamber when you cock the gun, and mess up what you have tried to attchieve, and will make you gun exceed 12lb muzzel energy. The next step is to clean you barrel with a copper brush then a nylon brush. Once you have run these brushes through the bore several times use a solvent to remove the lead build up and repeat until there are no marks on a cloth pulled through the bore. I the use Alcohol to finally remove any trace of oil. Job done. Reasemble the gun. And run it in with a tin of pellets, then recheck it with a chrono. Any sign of ignition or a burning smell, you have either not cleaned all the parts adiquately or have used accessive grease on the spring.

Good luck if you get it right you should have a accurate quiet consistant gun that should not need servicing again for thousands of rounds.
A guide that fits helps no twang no grease;)tight top hat
each man to his own but i never use silicon oil ,ox kits,or degreaser & i have never cleaned a barrel,owned a few guns we all do things are own way right or wrong:)
when i get time ill do a dvd my way not saying its perfect ,but it works for me
dave

jager
26-01-2009, 09:56 PM
hi how do you determine the length of the spring guide?cheers:cool:

uk litehammer
28-01-2009, 01:13 PM
A guide that fits helps no twang no grease;)tight top hat
each man to his own but i never use silicon oil ,ox kits,or degreaser & i have never cleaned a barrel,owned a few guns we all do things are own way right or wrong:)
when i get time ill do a dvd my way not saying its perfect ,but it works for me
dave

I'll look forward with interest to the DVD, don't keep us waiting too long, as I'm sure it'll be a winner, and help an awful lot of people.:)

05rw
31-01-2009, 09:15 PM
I have a old bsa meteor which i am looking to tune. Does anyone know of any places where i can get parts for it. I think it is a bsa meteor as on the top of the barrel it does not say mk2 or anything just bsa meteor thanks

Bulsaye
07-02-2009, 04:56 AM
No you cant it is not available to the general public, my wife gets it because she lectures and teaches nails and beauty but I have tried to get some without success I believe you can buy it in the USA over the counter

That is correct... and just about any counter! WalMarts, KMart, any chain pharmacy or corner convenience store. Usually found right next to the peroxide, witch hazel, etc. RB

BeerJam
25-03-2009, 12:25 PM
Hi

IPA is available here IPA Supply (http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/ppc104/ipa-solvent-1-litre-tin/dp/SA01885?) for anyone looking for a supplier.

(I have no personal or commercial connection with this supplier other than as a customer :))

Cheers, Mark

Nick Steele
26-03-2009, 11:59 AM
Would the process described in the first post work for my air rifle?

It's a cheap chinese one (SMK 17 :cool: :rolleyes::p) and I only got it a few months ago.

Now I'm not a bad shot, but at 25 yards with a rest, this thing'll shoot massive ragged groups. What can be done to improve the accuracy?

Feel free to mock me if you think it's necessary, I probably deserve it :D

Adam77K
26-03-2009, 01:13 PM
The tuning as described will most likely improve the rifle's firing cycle but it sounds like there are other issues.

Eliminate variables first. Is the scope securely mounted, is it focussed, are you suffering parallax error? If all ok, is the barrel lockup secure and is there any play in the breech jaws? Is the barrel clean? Have you tried different pellets?
Finally there's the fact that springers don't like being shot from a rest due to the recoil; it leads to inconsistency. Try resting on something softer like a cushion or your gloved fist on top of the rest.

HTH

uk litehammer
26-03-2009, 06:59 PM
Would the process described in the first post work for my air rifle?

It's a cheap chinese one (SMK 17 :cool: :rolleyes::p) and I only got it a few months ago.

Now I'm not a bad shot, but at 25 yards with a rest, this thing'll shoot massive ragged groups. What can be done to improve the accuracy?

Feel free to mock me if you think it's necessary, I probably deserve it :D

A stripdown, deburr and relube will do wonders for it. Also make sure barrel is properly clean, and check muzzle crown. I can't speak for the 17, but I know people with 19's and 20's who have had good results with this treatment, and now achieve good groups.;) For further info, see link below.

http://ukchineseairgunforum.myfreeforum.org/

Nick Steele
27-03-2009, 04:32 PM
Alright...I've taken the stockand cocking lever off...

Looks like the trigger assembly's WELDED to the bottom of the action :confused:

It's obvious that this POS wasn't meant to be dismantled.

T 20
31-03-2009, 07:26 AM
silicon oil best place for it is
the bin:D

The top tuners from the past used to recommend the use Silicon oil on piston heads in the form of SM50.

As you advise against the use of Silicon, I thought I'd ask what you recommended instead ? :)


All the best Mick

carld41
30-07-2009, 08:33 AM
I like this thread

Gungeek
30-07-2009, 10:23 AM
Silicone oil lubrication for old guns with leather piston washers was recommended. Is that now considered bad? Regards ... Geek

accused
06-08-2009, 07:37 AM
Well after about twenty years I am back tinkering and to be honest I am a little dissapointed that things are still frustrating when it comes to the good old spring gun design. Bought a Stealth recently and loved it but needed the "soul" of a spring gun again so off I went and sold the Stealth...

There was I hoping the niggles of 20+ years ago would have been just a memory....same issues that were there years ago are still there Today, bought a brand new HW80 recently and even though still robustly built the internals are a little bit of a disgrace with the cut spring and lucky chance tolerances. With modern machining it should be possible to have super smooth reliable consistency out of the box without resorting to tuning on £300+ guns!

So the tinkering starts and after a polish and lube things improved but then the cut spring needed dealing with, ordered an XS - truly awful too long and harsh then bent like a banana inside 50 shots! Back to the cut HW spring that actually looks better quality than most after market stuff but I cant live with the cut off end.

Then it's a TR ROBB spring...hmmm bit too hot and no facility to cut it at home, the garden gate spring collection grows!

Now it's an SFS spring, really nicely finished but sadly for some unknown reason gives shotgun groups - maybe a tight / loose guide compatability, who knows.

The last chance is going to be a Bonnie & Clyde kit from William all matching and if that goes the garden gate route it's sadly full circle to the PCP again.

Rant over :)

T 20
06-08-2009, 10:13 PM
Silicone oil lubrication for old guns with leather piston washers was recommended. Is that now considered bad? Regards ... Geek


Cheers Geek

I'm still no wiser as to what is used now.

I only asked the question because John Bowkett and many other top tuners used to recomend SM50 or MS50 on Synthetic and O ring piston heads.


Thanks again


All the best Mick

Flannelmeister
13-09-2009, 06:52 AM
The last chance is going to be a Bonnie & Clyde kit from William all matching and if that goes the garden gate route it's sadly full circle to the PCP again.

Rant over :)

A good choice.

I have just fitted one of Bonnie and Clyde's kits as sold by Westy on here to revive an old .177 HW80.

You get a variety of brass washers/spacers for the piston and a couple of power bands to use on the spring guide.

In my case, no power bands and the thickest brass washer plus the thin delrin washer/top hat bearing in the piston provided the desired result.

Gun is now a joy to shoot @ 765 -770fps (where I like the power of my springers to be) with JSB Exacts which equates to around 11 ftlbs.

You won't be disappointed if you buy the kit and use the various lubes supplied correctly - Westy can advise you on what to use where.

BONNIE & CLYDE
13-09-2009, 07:34 AM
The top tuners from the past used to recommend the use Silicon oil on piston heads in the form of SM50.

As you advise against the use of Silicon, I thought I'd ask what you recommended instead ? :)


All the best Mick
sm50 is fine dont have a break down of what it contains but its not just silicon its a mix ,i used it for years on seals but now i coat with anti scuff like gn paste ,then wet with dryslide type lube ,both high molly content this way every time you cock & fire your rifle it buffs itself in no need to put dryslide in compression tube:)
i can send you a sample of my moly lube (dryslide) but much thicker no charge if you pm me your addy
thanks dave

T 20
15-09-2009, 05:51 PM
sm50 is fine dont have a break down of what it contains but its not just silicon its a mix ,i used it for years on seals but now i coat with anti scuff like gn paste ,then wet with dryslide type lube ,both high molly content this way every time you cock & fire your rifle it buffs itself in no need to put dryslide in compression tube:)
i can send you a sample of my moly lube (dryslide) but much thicker no charge if you pm me your addy
thanks dave

Thanks for the info Dave

And thanks for the chat on Sunday, as a born again airgunner things have definitely moved on in the last 20 years.

You have Email by the way :)


All the best Mick

finners
02-10-2009, 07:54 PM
I would just like to echo many comments about the Bonnie & Clyde tuning kits now sold by Westy.
I can only say that the tuning kit is simple to fit and the lube instructions are very good for the relative novice like me.

The results are amazing. I would encourage anyone who is unsure about their ability to fit one of these kits themselves to not worry. It's so gratifying when the rifle feels so much smoother and the consistancy has you thinking the chrono is stuck....!

Thanks again to both David (B&C) and Paul (Westy).

Finners :):):)

Westy
10-10-2009, 07:25 PM
I would just like to echo many comments about the Bonnie & Clyde tuning kits now sold by Westy.
I can only say that the tuning kit is simple to fit and the lube instructions are very good for the relative novice like me.

The results are amazing. I would encourage anyone who is unsure about their ability to fit one of these kits themselves to not worry. It's so gratifying when the rifle feels so much smoother and the consistancy has you thinking the chrono is stuck....!

Thanks again to both David (B&C) and Paul (Westy).

Finners :):):)

Well, thanks for that Jez - you are more than welcome mate.:)

Cheers
Westy

FRENCHI
12-10-2009, 08:03 AM
I would just like to echo many comments about the Bonnie & Clyde tuning kits now sold by Westy.
I can only say that the tuning kit is simple to fit and the lube instructions are very good for the relative novice like me.

The results are amazing. I would encourage anyone who is unsure about their ability to fit one of these kits themselves to not worry. It's so gratifying when the rifle feels so much smoother and the consistancy has you thinking the chrono is stuck....!

Thanks again to both David (B&C) and Paul (Westy).

Finners :):):)
Here! Here! I second that what an outstanding difference these kits make to a springer, they are highly recommended in my eyes, they need to be tested to believe the actual difference they make!
Top kits from a top fella ;)

Mick.......:)

Westy
13-10-2009, 04:31 PM
Here! Here! I second that what an outstanding difference these kits make to a springer, they are highly recommended in my eyes, they need to be tested to believe the actual difference they make!
Top kits from a top fella ;)

Mick.......:)

Thanks for the vote of confidence Mick ....... It does have to be seen (shot) to be believed doesnt it ;)

Cheers
Westy

Andy001
10-01-2010, 08:16 PM
Can of Dri-Slide or tube Molykote GN paste
Abbey LT2 molybdenum grease
Abbey SM50 oil
Abbey Silicone oil


Can anyone tell me where can i purchase these from? JSR, havent got their website back up so. I've a few of my rifles to do in a few weeks time.

Can anyone tell me, does the process of lubing the piston and inner chamber of the rifle defer between a alloy piston head and a synethic (spelling sorry)

Thank you.
Andrew.

jimcam
26-01-2010, 08:24 PM
I've read this through as its very informative I'm going to try this out on an old SMK i've got lying around the shed somewhere.

DOIDY1
28-01-2010, 02:34 PM
Hi all can you help .I have a 75 original recoilless 6 mtr mach .is it possible to increase the power with a deferent spring so could use it for field target

Hsing-ee
28-01-2010, 06:29 PM
Hi all can you help .I have a 75 original recoilless 6 mtr mach .is it possible to increase the power with a deferent spring so could use it for field target

The compression chamber is too small, don't bother. FWB300 Match rifles can be boosted a bit, to 7.5 or 8.5 ft/lbs. Sell it and get a Prosport.

ozzie642
30-01-2010, 01:53 PM
hi, just put new spring etc in my .177 stingray, seems to be only managing 600 fps, any ideas why this could be, could puttin to much grease on mainspring have any adverse effest as i have put rather alot on it, any help much appreciated

Hsing-ee
30-01-2010, 02:27 PM
hi, just put new spring etc in my .177 stingray, seems to be only managing 600 fps, any ideas why this could be, could puttin to much grease on mainspring have any adverse effest as i have put rather alot on it, any help much appreciated

If you read the Tuning Guide at the beginning it says to use a very thin SMEAR of grease. Slathering it on with a trowel will cause problems.

Read the guide, degrease, check the piston seal and breech seal for nicks, relube and try again.

ozzie642
30-01-2010, 07:24 PM
k, stripped all down, and degreased, noticed a tiny dent on the piston seal, think i may have done that when refitting it, could that cause such a big drop in power as its a very very small dent, if so can you recommend a supplier and any tips on refitting it into the chamber avoiding any damage, also next time i change mainsprings can you recommend a certain make for quality and power, thanks

Hsing-ee
30-01-2010, 09:49 PM
k, stripped all down, and degreased, noticed a tiny dent on the piston seal, think i may have done that when refitting it, could that cause such a big drop in power as its a very very small dent, if so can you recommend a supplier and any tips on refitting it into the chamber avoiding any damage, also next time i change mainsprings can you recommend a certain make for quality and power, thanks

If the piston seal is letting air past it, you can expect lower power, harsher recoil and poorer accuracy. I don't know if the 'dent' you mention is letting air past. If you put the piston in the cylinder without the spring, and hold your finger over the transfer port & press the piston forward with a dowel, you should get an idea of whether the piston seal is working well. Cuts on the lip of the piston seal can have a dramatic effect on power.

Maccari in the USA does a nice tuning kit for this rifle -

Usually takes a couple of weeks, but worth the wait. Price depends on exchange rate.

Spring and guides -

http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/552850.htm

Special piston washer

http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/945836.htm

good luck

jackf1
24-05-2010, 02:42 PM
:d:d:d:d:d:d

risingfriend
20-11-2010, 05:57 PM
just read this with great interest will give it a try in the near future..good info

bsa-boy
16-12-2010, 12:41 AM
i could do with a hand with this

jumbuck
22-12-2010, 10:25 PM
If the piston seal is letting air past it, you can expect lower power, harsher recoil and poorer accuracy. I don't know if the 'dent' you mention is letting air past. If you put the piston in the cylinder without the spring, and hold your finger over the transfer port & press the piston forward with a dowel, you should get an idea of whether the piston seal is working well. Cuts on the lip of the piston seal can have a dramatic effect on power.

Maccari in the USA does a nice tuning kit for this rifle -

Usually takes a couple of weeks, but worth the wait. Price depends on exchange rate.

Spring and guides -

http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251488/552850.htm

Special piston washer

http://www.airrifleheadquarters.com/catalog/item/251485/945836.htm

good luck

Mr uk litehammer is well into Maccari for his air rifles which are top notch and he knows his stuff so it's got to be quality gear :cool:

mickjjuk
30-12-2010, 05:32 PM
Will look out for a older model I was a bit unsure about getting parts like seals. But after reading this I will give it a go. Thanks from Mick

westy1946
17-01-2011, 11:04 AM
No you cant it is not available to the general public, my wife gets it because she lectures and teaches nails and beauty but I have tried to get some without success I believe you can buy it in the USA over the counter

I have seen it for sale on the "Auction site"

brierley4life
26-05-2011, 01:20 PM
Which do you think will be the best a replacement spring or the Theoben gas ram. Also if I do convert to the gas ram will I still need to do the lube and seal tune or does everthing I need come in the Theoben kit?

angrybear
28-05-2011, 10:24 AM
Ref, Isopropyl alcohol
often the main ingredient in glass/window/windscreen cleaner,
But by far the best degreaser is car brake cleaner, available from any autoparts dealer by the gallon or in aerosols.
steve

kdaw
24-06-2011, 07:10 PM
Hi sorry to maybe ask a silly question will parker-hale express gun oil be ok for the main seal on the piston?

Hsing-ee
24-06-2011, 11:10 PM
Hi sorry to maybe ask a silly question will parker-hale express gun oil be ok for the main seal on the piston?

It would not be a good choice as it is for firearms lubrication and has a low flash-point. Use a tiny smear of moly grease or SM50.

Why not support our sponsor and buy a bottle of SM50 from him?

http://www.jsramsbottom.com/products/gun-care--lubes-abbey-gun-care/absm-abbey-gunlube-sm50-30ml.html

I've used it in in dozens of rifles and it works great with plastic, rubber and leather seals. A £4.60 bottle will last for ages (years).


The PH stuff will cause dieselling and possibly damage the rifle. If you have bought some already it will be OK to lube the trigger mechanism and also as a light coating to inhibit rust on the OUTSIDE of the rifle. But don't put it in the compression chamber or deiselling will occur.

Goodguyj
15-08-2011, 12:09 PM
Just purchased my first ever air rifle, and it's twangy. Any ideas on how to fix this. Also is a silencer a good add on to get? Can anyone suggest a good silencer to fit the weihrauch hw99s. Should I shorten to carbine length? Sorry for all the questions I'm new to this.
Any help will be appreciated

Hsing-ee
25-08-2011, 12:36 AM
Just purchased my first ever air rifle, and it's twangy. Any ideas on how to fix this. Also is a silencer a good add on to get? Can anyone suggest a good silencer to fit the weihrauch hw99s. Should I shorten to carbine length? Sorry for all the questions I'm new to this.
Any help will be appreciated

Read the first post on this thread, this tells you how to do a simple tune which will help reduce twang. The other things you can do are fit a piston sleeve (discussed near the top of the thread) and/or fit a custom spring/guide kit.

shootingmad
26-08-2011, 03:31 PM
This is the best Tuning Guide that I have found on the net,you will need to translate.

http://www.co2air.de/wbb3/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=47091&pageNo=1

look at the pictures before you translate or the translator will block them

Hsing-ee
01-09-2011, 12:51 PM
This is the best Tuning Guide that I have found on the net,you will need to translate.

http://www.co2air.de/wbb3/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=47091&pageNo=1

look at the pictures before you translate or the translator will block them


Problem is that you need a translator to translate the translation -

'Are we then about how we optimize the disassembled parts, complement and re-assemble. chip flow-locking optimize here only briefly, as already discussed in a separate thread . -The chip flow is allowed to transmit on its grid at runtime no forces on the run, as they deform the barrel minimal, which, however, because of the enormous "lever arm" makes the target distance noticeable. - The chip flow must be at always the same in his record run engage, otherwise changes the "jumping" of the rifle by the bounce shock. It is therefore a much softer spring is used, thereby also the arresting and releasing the chip flow proceeds much easier and more enjoyable, and it is sharpened, the front end of the mandrel - slightly smaller in diameter, slightly rounded, a little smoother.'

I think my tuning guide is a bit easier to follow! Perhaps you are fluent in German and can understand the original.

Goodguyj
21-09-2011, 06:39 PM
My once twangy weihrauch HW99s is now as quiet as a mouse, Thanks to Steve Pope for the V-Mach Kit and a massive thanks to UkNeil for fitting it for me. It now shoots a dream.

morbius
14-01-2012, 05:35 PM
Great guide I've got an old BSA Meteor that needs a good clean so I'll give it a go!:)

blind dog
17-01-2012, 03:52 AM
That's a gem. Worth translating by all appearances.

justjohn
14-03-2012, 07:43 PM
great post this thanks a lot, im off to start collecting bits to give my old webley a good going over!

philo
10-07-2012, 06:57 PM
never carry out any modification to an air rifle or pistol unless you have access to a cyrono
or you could be in a hole lot of trouble

mikmon
31-01-2013, 03:34 PM
thanks for the info:):)

co2ppk
31-01-2013, 04:53 PM
excellent post, great info there

crazycraddog
07-07-2013, 06:41 AM
Great read and going to use . Thank lads Dave

Clank
14-07-2013, 03:14 PM
never carry out any modification to an air rifle or pistol unless you have access to a cyrono
or you could be in a hole lot of trouble


I think you mean whole, though hole is quite appropriate.

Herx77
17-07-2013, 07:46 PM
Just a thought. If the spring does not bear on surfaces why do tuners put grease on it.Is it to mask problems which should have been taken care of by the tune itself.If not, the problem which is being masked is surely one that needs to be taken care of. It will always be there!
HERX77 .

Rapidnick
18-07-2013, 06:44 PM
Just a thought. If the spring does not bear on surfaces why do tuners put grease on it.Is it to mask problems which should have been taken care of by the tune itself.If not, the problem which is being masked is surely one that needs to be taken care of. It will always be there!
HERX77 .


I don't follow this. Of course the spring 'bears on surfaces' otherwise it would be suspended in thin air and couldn't do its job which is to convert the work the shooter puts in when the rifle is cocked into a pulse which in turn expels the pellet from the rifle.

Bulsaye
18-07-2013, 09:06 PM
Anyone thinking that the grease they just applied to their mainspring means they've tuned their gun is delirious. The grease is there to lubricate the mainspring, which is in contact with both the spring guide and the inside diameter of the piston. A tuned gun has much better fitting guide set which does keep the spring straighter, and THIS is what reduces spring vibration. The spring tar is there to supply lubricant to the snugly fitted guide. Tar-like greases are used because they are much better at staying put when the spring coils are freely released during firing. Loose greases and oils will be flung around all over the internals of the gun and migrate where they are not wanted.

jeff0100
22-07-2013, 03:07 PM
Just reading through this thread, and really enjoyed it..I was wondering if the lubes used are still relevant? The original post was in 2006, so what are the preferred lubes these days ?

Hsing-ee
22-07-2013, 06:41 PM
Just reading through this thread, and really enjoyed it..I was wondering if the lubes used are still relevant? The original post was in 2006, so what are the preferred lubes these days ?

The original lube scheme was from 1980, so it is a 'traditional' tune - as it says in the sub-title of the first post, for 'tuning the older springer'. It works for leather seal guns, 'O' ring seal guns and parachute-types and will give a smooth, consistent rifle which will become better with use and will not wear out. Dri-Slide will work well with the metal piston rings fitted to Webley Service and Feinwerkbau rifles.

It is a tried and tested tune, there are other probably simpler ways of effecting a tune on modern rifles like the TX etc, and I refer you to Tony's (bigtoe01) threads, or have a look at Jim Maccari's website.

Hot Sauce reel lubricant is the latest thing it seems, but I think Tony said you need to be careful about not mixing it with other lubes. With the internet it is much easier than in the old days to try out lots of different things, so get a rifle that is easy to strip (HW35?) and do some experiments!

jeff0100
22-07-2013, 07:03 PM
The original lube scheme was from 1980, so it is a 'traditional' tune - as it says in the sub-title of the first post, for 'tuning the older springer'. It works for leather seal guns, 'O' ring seal guns and parachute-types and will give a smooth, consistent rifle which will become better with use and will not wear out. Dri-Slide will work well with the metal piston rings fitted to Webley Service and Feinwerkbau rifles.

It is a tried and tested tune, there are other probably simpler ways of effecting a tune on modern rifles like the TX etc, and I refer you to Tony's (bigtoe01) threads, or have a look at Jim Maccari's website.

Hot Sauce reel lubricant is the latest thing it seems, but I think Tony said you need to be careful about not mixing it with other lubes. With the internet it is much easier than in the old days to try out lots of different things, so get a rifle that is easy to strip (HW35?) and do some experiments!

Thanks for that,I'd like to try taking a rifle apart and tuning it so it's a good idea to get an old one.I've looked at a few videos on youtube and the HW's don't look too hard to strip.

Still not sure what lube to put on which bit of the gun though.I'll take your advice and have a look at Bigtoe's blog and the Maccarri site.

thanks :)

Hsing-ee
22-07-2013, 07:25 PM
Thanks for that,I'd like to try taking a rifle apart and tuning it so it's a good idea to get an old one.I've looked at a few videos on youtube and the HW's don't look too hard to strip.

Still not sure what lube to put on which bit of the gun though.I'll take your advice and have a look at Bigtoe's blog and the Maccarri site.

thanks :)

You can get all the lubes in the original tune (post #1 in this thread) from the BBS's sponsor...

http://www.jsramsbottom.com/products/abmk-abbey-air-gun-airgun-rifle-spring-maintenance-lube-kit.html

Only £7.50, although I would stick to the suggestions in the first post rather than the Ramsbottom protocol!

jeff0100
22-07-2013, 07:44 PM
You can get all the lubes in the original tune (post #1 in this thread) from the BBS's sponsor...

http://www.jsramsbottom.com/products/abmk-abbey-air-gun-airgun-rifle-spring-maintenance-lube-kit.html

Only £7.50, although I would stick to the suggestions in the first post rather than the Ramsbottom protocol!

That looks good, decent price too.thanks :)

Herx77
19-09-2013, 09:32 PM
I don't follow this. Of course the spring 'bears on surfaces' otherwise it would be suspended in thin air and couldn't do its job which is to convert the work the shooter puts in when the rifle is cocked into a pulse which in turn expels the pellet from the rifle..

When cocked the spring dia expands and is effectively loose on the guide,held in position by the sear, and in mine, the rotary thrust needle bearings at the base of the spring.When the sear releases the spring it extends and eventually 'grips' the spring guide at max extention,any rotary movement taken care of by the bearing.
The spring movement mainly is expansion and contraction,with minimal if any slide,if properly arranged. Mine does not seem to suffer from my set up!:rolleyes:.Only my imput.
HERX77 .

torville
21-09-2013, 03:27 PM
Saw recently in wellknown brit. airgun magazine an article for young folk showing a can of "3-in-1" next to an airgun which kinda disappointed me as this oil is ,in my book a def.no-no if it gets in front of piston and even if it builds up in workings of springer-;iBELieve "3-in-1" contains silicone and molecules of this useful substance can nevertheless "clump" into diamondhard granules interacting under metal-to-metal friction and these indeed scarred c/cylinder of an airsporter I had AS a kid in the early seventies also piston washer lost it's zip drastically and in only a short time after I enthusiastically started dosing the entire action via loading-tap (fascinated by smoke).
Does anyone know for certain if there's a lot of silicone in the above as it's my theory that there are far better gun0oils to use with the spring-gun and those that claim rust-inhibiting properties may or may not contain the silicone molecules-;believe that [ballistol] and [jansonite] are two old-fashioned (shot)gun oils which were formulated before the spaceage and both remarkable for the rust-beating quality which has seen them stand the test of time appearing, as they do in sporting stores of today;[bisley] and [parker-hale] are two good oils which are stressed as purely mineral- only, as well as the budget[napier] and the rarely seen [hoppes] (pron.from polish surname "hop-ee") this trad.gun-oil of the U.S.A. known to be one of the oldtime rust-inhibitors without silicone involved and all extremely hot if they find their way in front of piston in more than the smallest amount tho' a tiny drop does no harm I reckon indeed the first airgun designers were delighted by the diesel phase at the core of the original concept sp-ring-gun circa eighteen sixty-six*regards .torville
*Havilland & Gunn/[quackenbush] nr.1&1/2

torville
22-09-2013, 10:01 AM
Back in the eighties Cardew recommended popping [hw] spring-guide into piston as a simple way to add weight and a home-turned tophat at the breech end with thrust bearings on both parts to ease spring torque dynamics.regaRDS torville.

Snooper601
23-09-2013, 08:46 AM
Back in the eighties Cardew recommended popping [hw] spring-guide into piston as a simple way to add weight and a home-turned tophat at the breech end with thrust bearings on both parts to ease spring torque dynamics.regaRDS torville.

It's the other way round!

Top hat shaped guide in the piston, short and light.
Long spring guide at the rear end, breech, ideally fixed to the trigger block to save damage to the rear block by rotational forces. Non moving part so weight is unimportant, meaning it can be long enough to almost touch the top hat when the spring is fully compressed.

Cheers

John

leon1935
05-10-2013, 10:10 AM
I have a 1919 BSA Standard .22

Would the tuning guide apply to a gun of this age.

It is surprisingly accurate to about 30ish yards, further than that it is me...and Iron sights..:)

Leon

Hsing-ee
06-10-2013, 01:54 PM
I have a 1919 BSA Standard .22

Would the tuning guide apply to a gun of this age.

It is surprisingly accurate to about 30ish yards, further than that it is me...and Iron sights..:)

Leon

Ideal for a BSA like that, although the parts should need very little polishing after all that use! You might need to buy or make a new piston washer from leather, or you could possibly get an adaptor for a plastic parachute washer. Have fun.

torville
06-10-2013, 08:06 PM
This is a term coined by the late ,great gerald cardew,airgun boffin of the seventies and particularly interested in the [v-rok] mod.35 export with it's leather wasjer-;card reckoned that the piston washer,reciprocating back and forth is intended to scrape some lube i.e.whatever petro-chemical oil/grease is present in the action and either prepped on n/cylinder walls or emerging from "fuel store" on spring which he recommended as three teaspoonfuls two-thirds up mainspring ,"fuelglobule" nestling inside piston and a piston sleeve/grease shield to prevent too much flying off thru cocking slot onto walls of n/cylinder and from there scraped forward in front of piston with each shot and this scraped fuel righteously detonating in the diesel phase .
our experiments with the [v-rok] mod.80 show that with no lube there is only a popgun phase;with too much finding it's way in front of piston result erratic vel. and interestingly some diesel giving high reading but most excessive detonation/diesel remarkably hampering downrange performance with low vel.resulting.
our verdict that with modern [v-rok] piston without open cocking slot where grease can get flung thru there can be no call whatever for piston sleeve of thin stainless which would be superfluous but certainly have heard of ptfe/synthetic sleeve which might well reduce mechanical noise but any grease shield function redundant due to all grease being confined inside piston of modern [v-rok] pattern .
ideal fuelling we reckon is one drop of ramsbottom[sm50]via t/port ( allow cocked gun to stand a few hours) every three tins pell )note: first shots after fuelling use two heavy pell each time for a coupla loads until any excessive smoking dies away)and on rebuild smear of [abbey LT2] on area where piston washer meets piston so it remains in this slight groove also [moly paste] on skirt of piston and some on upper rear of n/cylinder cos piston gats pushed upwards as wellas backward on cocking and thus bears on this upper surface of n/cyl at rear action plus of cours an amount of grease on mainspring to lube coils but not so much to reduce efficiency in effort to dampen mechanical noise.regards.

Hsing-ee
06-10-2013, 10:27 PM
This is a term coined by the late ,great gerald cardew,airgun boffin of the seventies and particularly interested in the [v-rok] mod.35 export with it's leather wasjer-;card reckoned that the piston washer,reciprocating back and forth is intended to scrape some lube i.e.whatever petro-chemical oil/grease is present in the action and either prepped on n/cylinder walls or emerging from "fuel store" on spring which he recommended as three teaspoonfuls two-thirds up mainspring ,"fuelglobule" nestling inside piston and a piston sleeve/grease shield to prevent too much flying off thru cocking slot onto walls of n/cylinder and from there scraped forward in front of piston with each shot and this scraped fuel righteously detonating in the diesel phase .
our experiments with the [v-rok] mod.80 show that with no lube there is only a popgun phase;with too much finding it's way in front of piston result erratic vel. and interestingly some diesel giving high reading but most excessive detonation/diesel remarkably hampering downrange performance with low vel.resulting.
our verdict that with modern [v-rok] piston without open cocking slot where grease can get flung thru there can be no call whatever for piston sleeve of thin stainless which would be superfluous but certainly have heard of ptfe/synthetic sleeve which might well reduce mechanical noise but any grease shield function redundant due to all grease being confined inside piston of modern [v-rok] pattern .
ideal fuelling we reckon is one drop of ramsbottom[sm50]via t/port ( allow cocked gun to stand a few hours) every three tins pell )note: first shots after fuelling use two heavy pell each time for a coupla loads until any excessive smoking dies away)and on rebuild smear of [abbey LT2] on area where piston washer meets piston so it remains in this slight groove also [moly paste] on skirt of piston and some on upper rear of n/cylinder cos piston gats pushed upwards as wellas backward on cocking and thus bears on this upper surface of n/cyl at rear action plus of cours an amount of grease on mainspring to lube coils but not so much to reduce efficiency in effort to dampen mechanical noise.regards.

I think that is too much lube; Cardew's experiments were fine on the leather-washer out-of-true-cylinder guns of the time, but modern rifles work well in the pop-gun phase and do not NEED the boost from 'fuel'. If you over-lube with a drop of SM50 every 1500 shots you will get diesel shots and inconsistency generally, weakening the spring and losing accuracy. The combustion theory is a controversial one, even during Cardews heyday - in 1981 there was an experiment with a DRY lubricated FWB Sport which made a healthy 11 ft lbs. Note this rifle had a plastic parachute seal and the legendary FWB cylinder which is made to extremely close tolerances.

sniper24687066
07-10-2013, 09:20 AM
I might just give this a go,many thanks for all the info.:)

airarms tx
06-11-2013, 07:10 PM
Just stripped n re lubed tx 200 nothing else and its made a massive difference read loads what said don't bother vmach just re lube.

howm58
03-12-2013, 07:59 AM
I agree, very good tune up guide.
Tried it on an almost 'new' HW 95, what a difference (power up to 11+lbs & smoother). I also discovered that weihrauch (like most companies) make their guns down to a price. If you have the ability take them apart and clean them up, even if new!!
As for the degreaser, your local Motor Factors should stock aerosol cans of 'Brake Disc Degreaser' or suchlike. very strong solvent (clears most everything) & dries quickly, certainly worth a try.
Howard

rojin
25-11-2014, 06:47 PM
Hi Robert :)

I found that dropping the power of a 12fpe HW80 down to 10.5fpe and using 7.9g pellets (Mosquitoes) made a huge difference. The rifle was much more tolerant of different holds, simply because it exhibited MUCH less recoil.

Also, putting the action into a heavier stock further reduced recoil. It's the only 80 I've shot that let me keep the crosshairs on the target throughout the firing cycle.

I've since sold the rifle to Adam77K on here, so it might be worth having a word with him... ;)

Paul.

Totally,10.5 flbs in a medium to heavy springer is perfect imo. I have a prosport .177 running at 10.8flbs. I made the spring myself from a oteva grade material,bliss to shoot.