View Full Version : Red Ken's ban on Replicas AND airguns....
16-07-2003, 02:04 PM
Copied from the Mayor of London's website:
Ban Replica Guns
Either way, you're dead. Ban replica guns. Lock, stock and barrel.
The Mayor of London believes that there is ample evidence, which shows that imitation firearms and air weapons are performing an important role in serious crime. The increasing availability of such 'life-like' weapons on the open market has led to their increased use in street robbery and violent confrontations. The range of people affected is much wider than just the victims themselves and includes not only the families, but also police officers and whole communities who live in fear of violence, intimidation of the actual or threatened use of these dangerous weapons. The continuing manufacture, importation and sale of replica firearms costs lives and therefore represents a clear and present danger to both the public and the police.
Banning replica weapons will reduce the overall presence of firearms in our communities and can assist the Police in tackling those offenders who are armed with intent to cause fear and harm.
The Mayor wants recognition in London that the role of the firearm is changing and possession of firearms, replica or not, has become a cultural issue that must be changed through education and backed up by legislation to enforce the message of eliminating gun crime.
Write to or email the Mayor with your comments on his draft policy on replica guns:
Mayor of London
The Queen's Walk
Yeah, I know there was a post about this last week... but it's still up on Ken's website, so keep on writing to him to set the record straight and protest about this rubbish campaign....
16-07-2003, 02:06 PM
Here's the e-mail I just sent:
I was disgusted by your advert in the 'New Statesman' magazine. With such blatant bias and propaganda, how can you expect to get a realistic picture of people's feelings about these things?
"They fire real bullets. They kill and wound real people."
No they don't. This is a blatant lie. Only a tiny percentage of guns used by criminals are converted replicas. the vast majority of replicas are made of plastic, so how can they be 'converted' to fire real ammunition? Admitted, a small percentage of guns recovered by the police are converted 'Brocock' pistols (though nowhere near the percentage claimed by various people however) but Brocock pistols are built in such a way that makes it very difficult to convert them, and a converted Brocock pistol will most likely disintegrate in the firer's hand if used with 'real' ammunition anyway.
A completely specious point.
"They're indistinguishable from real guns."
True, that is why it is already illegal to take a replica gun out into a public place! That's why it's already illegal to threaten someone with a replica gun! Will making it illegal twice make it more illegal, or will there be the same level of illegality in the offence? Will there be any police available to police a ban?
"Once converted, modified or upgraded, replica guns are real guns"
Like I said above, claiming that replicas can be converted into firearms is utterly beneath contempt. It's a lie.
"And chillingly there are an estimated half-a-million in circulation in the UK. "
So what? What does this matter when the vast majority of them are owned completely legally by law-abiding people, who DO NOT USE THEM TO BREAK THE LAW?
All this is as bad as the anti-airgun hysteria that was being whipped up by self-seeking
MPs and the gutter press before the Gulf War started grabbing headlines. There are approaching FIVE MILLION airguns in the UK, that sounds like a lot doesn't it? I suppose it is, but when you think that there are only around ten thousand reported crimes involving airguns per year, it is evident that only about a fifth of a single per cent of airguns, AT THE MOST, are used illegally! Think how safe the roads would be if only 0.2 per cent of cars ever broke the speed limit!
I own several replica guns. I have installed electronic circuitry inside them. A large number of friends have done the same, and on private land, after informing the local police, we stage combat role-playing games.... Your ill-founded and senseless ban would destroy our hobby. There are also many more people who play similar games with replica guns that harmlessly fire small plastic balls. There are also many other people who for one entirely legal and inoffensive reason or another might want to own perfectly legal replica guns. Your stupid proposals would make criminals of all of us. I also own several entirely legal airguns; air pistols and air rifles. While none of these are actually replicas, some of them do resemble guns to a degree. Would these be banned? While shooting paper targets I get a great deal of pleasure from my airguns, which despite the very many already very strict laws regarding airguns, I have never used illegally, like 99.8 percent of airgun owners it seems.
"The UK has arguably the toughest and most effective gun laws in the world."
I would also dispute that UK gun laws are effective. While various governments have been banning guns since the 1920s, you must understand that such bans will only apply to people who already obey the law. For instance, Machine guns have been banned in the UK since 1929, but did that prevent those two poor girls being killed in Sheffield recently? No. When you outlaw guns, only the outlaws have guns.
I would say that the rise in gun crime is due to cutbacks in the Customs service, the fall of the former Soviet republics and the flow of illegal guns out of Africa into criminal hands, not to mention an evil gun-culture amongst gangsters that has made already illegal guns into fashion accessories (due in no small part to the influence of 'gangsta-rap' and violent films imported from America).
Banning guns, airguns or replica guns from the hands of law-abiding people will have no effect whatsoever on crime like this. These people are already criminals, how will beating law abiding people with a stick yet again do anything to cut crime? There is an increasing body of evidence to show that disarming law-abiding people actually increases crime by taking the fear of self defence away from criminals, making them bolder and more likely to risk confrontation.
I think it is absolutely despicable that you are starting this campaign. It seems to me that by seeking publicity in this way, and yet again trying to ban things for law-abiding people, you are trying to misdirect the public's attention away from the fact that you do not have any solution to the real problem: criminals with real guns and a callous disregard for their fellow people. You are trying to make it seem as though you are doing something constructive about a genuine problem, when in fact you are simply publicising an ill-informed initiative, and disseminating distorted anti-gun propaganda. You would be better off spending your time and energy trying to do something about illegal guns instead of banning even more things.
If you really want to do something to stop 'gun culture', you could try banning offensive 'gangsta rap' music. I have heard examples of this which glorify guns, murder, violence, criminality, racism, homophobia, even rape. But I suspect that it would not be 'politically correct' to do something like that would it?
What you people always fail to understand is that there are different gun cultures in the world; there is the responsible, respectable culture, which teaches respect for fellow people, and responsibility to others, which I am part of, and which should be allowed to flourish, and then there is the evil gun culture, promoted by gangster rap, violent films that glorify illegal use of guns, even some TV programmes are guilty of this. This second gun culture is the one which needs to be stamped out, and forever hassling law-abiding people with an interest in guns and shooting will not do this.
Please reply to my e-mail, I would like to hear what you have to say.
Chris (South Ronaldsay)
16-07-2003, 03:26 PM
Great letter Rob!
16-07-2003, 08:13 PM
very well put
(and ive also sent a e-mail myself)
[This message was edited by Merc on 17 July, 2003 at 15:35.]
16-07-2003, 08:35 PM
Fantastic! <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::)--> <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::)--> <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::)-->
17-07-2003, 12:07 AM
"Banning replica weapons will reduce the overall presence of firearms in our communities and can assist the Police in tackling those offenders who are armed with intent to cause fear and harm.
The Mayor wants recognition in London that the role of the firearm is changing and possession of firearms, replica or not, has become a cultural issue that must be changed through education and backed up by legislation to enforce the message of eliminating gun crime."
Well i think the worring thing about this is that the commey Ken mentions that he wants to reduce the amount of firearms and change their role, and that their role is a cultural issue. This is bascially just communist crap about how he believes that guns are bad and how he would like all guns to be elimated.
Arthur John Smithsplease
17-07-2003, 11:36 AM
Livingstone is a socialist of the worst sort. He doesn't like guns, and he knows better than you and me, so he wants to stop us having them.
These people are elected to represent us, not to dictate to us.
Livingstone doesn't believe in freedom at all. What he likes is good. What he doesn't like is bad. And, like most politicians, what he enjoys most of all is telling the rest of us what we can and can't do.
17-07-2003, 01:14 PM
They should clamp down on car theft ,and the so called :joy riders: they cause more havock ,death and distress then any airgun or replica ever could,anyway ban the road toll on car travel ,much more offencive if you ask me.
17-07-2003, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ian M.:
"Well i think the worring thing about this is that the commey Ken mentions that he wants to reduce the amount of firearms and change their role, and that their role is a cultural issue. This is bascially just communist crap about how he believes that guns are bad and how he would like all guns to be elimated.[/quote]
Just a word from an outsider,"Red Ken, like all good communists, prefers unarmed peasents." I myself and more concerned about armed pheasents.
gameshot ferret mk2
17-07-2003, 02:49 PM
i agree with 99.9 % of the letter EXCEPT for your references to 'Gansta'rap. i am a big hiphop fan and i don't believe rap influences the vast majority of fans but gun crime is caused by the rising use of drugs
17-07-2003, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gameshot ferret mk2:
i agree with 99.9 % of the letter EXCEPT for your references to 'Gansta'rap. i am a big hiphop fan and i don't believe rap influences the vast majority of fans but gun crime is caused by the rising use of drugs[/quote]
Yes, you probably do, do you?
17-07-2003, 06:22 PM
"i agree with 99.9 % of the letter EXCEPT for your references to 'Gansta'rap. i am a big hiphop fan and i don't believe rap influences the vast majority of fans but gun crime is caused by the rising use of drugs"
Sorry, but I am certain that gangsta culture is popularised and glamourised by rap. Many rap songs are about drug dealing and gun crime after all....
Anyway, our differences aside, please drop an e-mail in protest to the above address?
26-07-2003, 07:18 PM
I just sent them an email badgering them for a reply to my letter, haven't had one yet (what a surprise!)
Can anyone else with a spare minute or two drop a line to the above address?
26-07-2003, 08:29 PM
I dont think any law abiding decent human being would be influenced by gangsta rap, movies etc, it's only the minority who is inclined towards violence that would be influenced. The rest of us take it for what it is music and films.
The politicians say that guns cause death and misery, which is right in some cases the majority of gun owners however use them lawfully and respectfully taking into the consideration the feelings of people.
Now lets see what else in everyday life mirrors this situation.
CARS, everyday someone is killed by a car that is being driven by someone with no regard to the public. Whether through DRINK, DRUGS, THEFT or just plain stupidity they kill, maim and ruin peoples llives.
Now i know this is the minority again but anyone can get in a car and do a considerable amount of damage. So will 'Mr Livingston' be starting a campaign to outlaw cars? So what if it makes life extremely difficult for the general populace. THINK OF HOW MANY LIVES IT WOULD SAVE. But NO he wont do this as it would destroy his political career, and after all is said and done 'HIS POLITICAL CAREER IS WHAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT'.
27-07-2003, 12:31 AM
I have often woundered how the British got saddled with the laws you must endure concearning both firearms and Airguns. In the USA we would recall or simply not elect polititans with such narrow minded and screwed up views that they wish to "force" on the public. We also have national origanizations that make it known and help avert such Bull puckie moves. (NRA)
I wish you the best in the future, but if you can read information like that and not sit down and write SEVERAL letters - you deserve what you get.
SPEAK UP! Do it now! and don't stop until somebody listens. Gun owners are not prone to criminal behavior. Criminals are.
Remember dear frends and brethern - it was Nazi Germany that dis-armed the general population and anyone who would support such moves today; shares the views and tactics employed by Hitler and the Reich. This is not a good thing and it is not in the best intrest of the general population. - In my opnion.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Myjack:
Remember dear frends and brethern - it was Nazi Germany that dis-armed the general population and anyone who would support such moves today; shares the views and tactics employed by Hitler and the Reich.
Ermmmm, no, sorry.
Hitler didn't disarm the German people at all... the 1938 firearm laws introduced what would be called a 'concealed carry permit' in the USA, for those Germans who wished to carry a pistol in a public place. There was also some weird stuff about silencers being prohibited and taking game at night by means of a lamp being 'unsporting' and therefore also prohibited.
Hollow point .22 ammo was banned as well, don't know why.
Long guns did not require any paperwork to purchase, although there was a license to buy if you wished to hunt with them.
No-one was disarmed.
The right of a German person to own a gun for self defence purposes was actually ended in 1945 by the occupying powers.....
The people who want guns banned today are Stalinist in their outlook - many, like 'Red Ken' are former members of the Communist Party of Great Britain who have now found positions of political power within the Labour Party.
27-07-2003, 01:30 AM
I say that since Red Ken "believes there is ample evidence", he should produce HARD evidence before trouncing on peoples freedoms. His "belief" is simply not enough. The problem is that leftist and socialist types often distort the facts beyond recognition. RB
27-07-2003, 04:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bulsaye:
I say that since Red Ken "believes there is ample evidence", he should produce HARD evidence before trouncing on peoples freedoms. His "belief" is simply not enough. The problem is that leftist and socialist types often distort the facts beyond recognition. RB[/quote]
Like all Communists, the truth is what they dictate it to be <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_mad.gif" alt="Mad" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::mad:-->
Ray <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_cool.gif" alt="Cool" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::cool:-->
27-07-2003, 09:00 AM
The man's a prat of the first order, but since when has the mayor of london had the power to impose a law on whole country? I do not live in london and so i'm not that bothered.
also, while you are busy sending email after email to complain have you considered that they are almost definitely NOT READ!!
In fact, you could even be HELPING with commy Ken's campaign! It is a simple matter to write a small program to count the email arriving a given address, add it to a running total and then delete the messages. After a while, commy Ken comes out and says 'we got 80 million emails about this!' what he DOESN'T say is none of them were read, 78.7 million of them were SPAM porn adverts, and the rest were protests from people here!
27-07-2003, 11:50 AM
Red Ken cannot of course pass laws for anywhere let alone London, these matters are reserved for Parliament but never underestimate the value of constant negative propaganda. It was, after all, the master of the trade who said that the bigger the lie and the more often it was repeated the more likely it was to be believed. Either way, Livingtone and his ilk have learned the lesson well and have used it to good effext to creat an atmosphere of fear and suspicion and hatred of guns in this country which allows them to have anti-shooting legislation passed at regular intervals and will eventually result in them achieving their objective which is that ther be no guns of any description in the hands if anyone other than the government and their minions. What happens then is open to question but would you trust people such as this with your future? The contarsting treatment handed out to farmer Tony Martin who has just served two thirds of his sentence for shooting a couple of burglars and the quick release of one of the burglars after serving less than one third of his sentence for heroin dealing should be an indication of the attitudes of many of thiose in power in the Home Office so we can expect no favours from any of them. It's up to all of us to get our collective act together and defend every attack on ALL of the shooting sports (not just airguns) if we are to have any hope of [reventaing them from prevailing.
27-07-2003, 02:26 PM
Because Ken Livingstone "belives" something it is opened up for serious debate. Where is his evidence, especially about airguns? The problem with passing more laws like this is that they will have no effect of the use of replicas etc. by criminals as they are not exactly over concerned with legality! When will these politicians realise that effective policing (e.g. bobbies on the beat, not in cars) and deterrent setencing would be more help in reducing crime than passing more laws. And Rob, no, I'd be most surprised if you did get a reply- people like that have no answer to reasoned arguments such as those in your e-mail. Do criminals use airguns?- I've never heard of it.
27-07-2003, 03:01 PM
I got a written reply when I wrote to Ken, but it was obvious they hadn't taken any notice of the points raised. Got much more sense writing to David Blunkett. Don't waste your time on the samll fry, teir minds are closed.
27-07-2003, 03:59 PM
Well ive had my tuppence worth emailed over to them.
Isnt it ironic though; They were sure there were weapons of mass distuction in iraq, Now are they sayin there in the UK?
Maybe one of these nukes they saw were actually a water bomb - NOW THAT WOLD MAKE SENSE!!
Anyway i said;
I have read your piece on replica guns and there place in the public, And find your views disgusting, narrow minded and heavily biased, These are your views and not of those who reguarly use these "gangstas weapons" completly legaly on a day to day basis.
I do own an air rifle and a couple of replica pistols which fire small plastic balls which only just reach the width of my garden, are made almost entirely of plastic and one has broken after i dropped it - hardly strong enough to fire a bullet!!.
If criminal's wanted to get an illegeal firearm, they already can - even after the terrible tragedy in Dunblane, when handguns were banned from sale across the UK, criminals are still able to purchase handguns anywhere in this country.
Machine guns have been banned since 1929 and i don't think i need to remind you of those two girls who were killed outside a night club a few months ago.
And as for the illegal firearms amnesty thats just passed - nearly all the "illegal firearms" were in fact 100% LEGAL.
Might i make a suggestion? you stop twisting facts to suit your self and actually represent the people like you were appointed to, instead of manipulating them!.
27-07-2003, 04:39 PM
This is my first post to this forum and I find this particular point quite interesting, especially for the people who believe they are not influenced by Tv, media or music.
The reason guns have become a fashion accessory is because the public see people that they look up to wandering around with guns making it look cool - this may be film stars or gangsta rappers. In the same way young women see skinny models and want to be like them. The media in all its forms sets the stage and the general public play to their tune. The media controls governments, not the other way round. Good press gets votes and the media makes millions by making a big hoohar about how terrible guns are.
28-07-2003, 05:28 AM
Well said Icarus, welcome to the board.
29-07-2003, 05:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sid:
No-one was disarmed.[/quote]
Not quite true. Jews and other "undesirables" were disarmed. Hitler wasn't really a gun grabber, that much is true, but he wasn't exactly pro-gun either. Guns were regulated before Hitler came to power and primarily he just revised the regulations a little. What Hitler did do was strip away the rights of entire groups of people, including their right to self defense.
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