Can you tell me about WW1 era BSA air rifles?

[felix gunner]

As well as an interest in old airguns my main passion is connected with the Great War - I am keen to buy a BSA air rifle from this era or in the preceding years (ie 1905 - 1918). Would this be the Improved Model 'D'? Were these used in any capacity for training at that time (cadets, boys clubs etc) either formally or informally?

How can I be sure of date, model and not get caught out with a 'bitsa?

Basically, any info/pics to help me learn these models much appreciated.

:)

Interested in anything for sale too.

[mowerman]

Hi, you could get yourself a copy of:

'B.S.A. and Lincoln Jeffries Air Rifles: A Concise Illustrated History of their Development and Manufacture, 1904 - 1918'. (Hardcover) by John Knibbs.
ISBN-10:0951131702.
This is available at Ama*on for about £15.00.

Or John Knibbs International at www.Airgunspares.com

Hope this helps, Paul.;)

[Gareth W-B]

Or alternatively, contact this guy :D ...


Hi everybody, one of my mates is returning to Australia and cannot take his guns with him :(.

He has a 1906 (thanks for the date, Paddy_SP) BSA .177 No 1 to sell. I've photographed it and put it on a site here. (http://www.haberpakka.org.uk/index.php?option=com_easygallery&Itemid=28) I recently cocked it and shot it, and could at a push bung it through my Chrony, but I hardly think that's critical.

The gun appears to be complete, original and a bit scratched. I have done nothing to it for fear of spoiling the patina etc.

He's looking for £150 for the gun. I'm in North Gloucestershire, between Tewkesbury and Worcester, and would prefer a face to face meeting.

I'm not too good on detailing old guns, so please ask if you want further information. I'd love to keep it for myself, but don't have the cash just now!

Regards,

Martin

[Jersey Guy]

Hate to be a bore, but that's a 1920's gun. Still nice though.

Jim.

[Paddy_SP]

Hate to be a bore, but that's a 1920's gun. Still nice though.
Jim.

Yes, you're right - I was going by the J. Knibbs serial number index... According to Hiller, it's a 1920 model...

[felix gunner]

Thanks guys but can any of you experts actually tell me anything about them?! ;)

What serial numbers, features, designs would identify a Model D from the era I am looking for - any history of their use in training? I believe there was a specific rare military model?

[Lakey]

The models you need would be the Improved model D pattern with serial numbers between 65000 and around 80000. Most had the double safety sear fitted so there should be an "S" in front of the serial number. Improved model D's were avalable in standard and light pattern and there was a junior model made for children/juniors.
The Military patterns were produced in vary small numbers up until the outbreak of the first world war, and were used by soldiers and cadets for training (as were the ordinary air rifles as well) Also some of the more wealthy public schools used the occasional military patterns for training.
What you really need(as the ultimate war training tool) is the gun laying teacher which was a rare variant of the improved model D. This was produced through the years of the first world war to train artilliary and naval gunners the rudiments of gun laying and other gun adjustments and was designed so that it could be used in the close confines of drill halls and courtyards instead of the gunnery range. These are very rare and I would not begin to know where you would get one from.The naval ones were set of using an electric solonoid and the one designed for ground artilliary were fire using a lanyard. They come fitted to their own mounting which is then fixed along side the big gun barrel.

Sometime during the great war BSA started photo etching details onto guns but the early ones had both stamped and photo etching together.

Once the war had finished BSA started to make a new model in both .22 and .177. These were the standards and the .22 was in long or sporting pattern and the .177 was in light or ladies pattern.

Hope that helps


Lakey

[silva]

Hello, Just my two pennoth worth on 1904 TO 1918 Bsa air rifles !

A quick first glance, rule of thumb is to look at the end of the cocking lever. All pre WW1 and WW1 era Bsa's will have either a cranked end or a sidecatch release on the end. All push button models are post WW1.

On all but the last sidecatch models, there will also be a cylinder inscription with the model either, "Bsa Air Rifle", "Improved model B", "Improved Model D".

There will be no prefix on the the serial numbers, except for a letter S after serial no. approx S 51530 - all these S prefix models will have a sidecatch cocking lever release.

The trigger adjustment will be a threaded bolt through the trigger guard. Though you will also encounter mid 1930's models with this feature, but these will have a serial no. prefix letter of either C, T or A.

The stock shape is also different, the post WW1 models up until the mid 1930'S have a rounded bottom to the pistol grip, where as the earlier models have a more distinct shape.

There are many other differences, including sights, stock stampings, loading taps, trigger guards, cocking levers etc, but the above info will be a fair indicator you are looking at the right rifle.

Bsa made a Military Pattern Air Rifle before the war. These were based on the . 303 Long Lee Enfield Rifle, which was still being issued to Territorials and and some regular army units before the First World War. There was also a model made, based on the SMLE, but possibly only 2 or three were ever manufactured.

These beautifully made trainers are rare, expensive and desirable - Especially by me and Lakey !!!

Your best bet is to get "Bsa and Lincoln Jeffries" by John Knibbs, you see it on E**y for about £15.00 and will be a sound investment.


Best Regards

[felix gunner]

Fantastic, thanks chaps. Just to ask also - what is a fair price for an average usable rifle as above (not mint collectors or anything just fair condition) and are spares/springs available or interchangeable?

[silva]

Hello Felix Gunner,

The prices tend to range from about £100 upwards for anything in half decent condition.

£150.00 in a private sale, should get you a nice .177 43.5 " long, pre WW1 shooting example, in good condition, with all parts, but with little original finish remaining.

£275/£350 should buy you a minty one, with most finish, in the more common 43.5 " and 39" long models.

However, there are always bargains to be found out there.

There still must be lots of undiscovered Bsa treasures tucked away, as 80,000 or so of these early Bsa's were manufactured up until 1918.

Always try and buy complete rifles unless v.cheap or rare models, as small parts like sights etc. are expensive.

Virtually all pattern parts and service parts can still be bought.

Best Regards

[NortonAMC]

quote.
.....Interested in anything for sale too......


Felix.

I have a later 1924 0.177 L prefix. Ladies or light model
new spring fitted but it has a parker hale front sight with a hood
that is not standard. £90 plus post.

can send pictures if interested.

Mike.

[felix gunner]

Thanks again. Mike, appreciate the offer but it's a bit late in period for me. :)

[sparko]

Hi, I have a B.S.A Improved model D Here, Serial No..21001 Completely original... Lincoln Jefferies stamped on the underlever, can any one date it, value it maybe?... The chap i bought it from used it for drill practice with the home guard here in Somerset.

[Ratbuster]

Here we go; serial # 20730 - 21229 July / Dec 1908 Period of manufacture / period of despatch Sept 1908 / May 1909 imp.mod "D"standard & light .177, .22, .250 light pattern


(Source "BSA & Linciln Jeffries Air Rifles by John Knibbs)

Don't know what it's worth, but others surely will know


Hans

[sparko]

Well, well, well, older than I thought, due a big birthday soon then, It is In .22 and shoots fine. I was told it had been wrapped in tarpaulin since 1945, and i was the first to fire it, 2 years ago... since it was put away. There must be a few of these still hiding somewhere. .. Thanks for your details well done. Mark.

[silva]

Hello Sparko,
the fact that it is in .22 makes it much more unusual.
How long is it ? Should be either 45.5 inch, 43.5 inch or possibly 39 inch (v.unlikely)
If its the longer model, then you have the Sporting Model which is one of the finest Pre war Bsa's.
However if its the shorter model, then it will be possibly a little rarer !
I love these tales of hidden treasure being found !

Best Regards Morgan

[benchstop]

I can see the attraction of owning something from the war years, and I would be keen to indulge if some of you could convince me that if in the right hands and in the right condition (I hesitate to use the word 'tuned') one of these would be ok for the odd outing in the field, allowing for open sights.

Thanks in advance Mike

[mjohno]

Many years ago in one of the airgun mags. They ran a series of articles on a shooter who used his pre war BSA for vermin control.
These old guns were made for vermin control so as long as they are in good condition there should be no problem. Just think the gun you would be using could be a hundred years old. Just think how many people have had the pleasure of ownership in that time.
Be careful though a few years ago I had half a dozen or so WWI service rifles, while they found new owners. When they had gone both myself and the good lady happen to mention that we had caught a glimpse of someone standing in the hallway. Previous owners from 1914-18????? who knows but never felt anything since.

[Lakey]

Benchstop,

These guns are awsome for vermin control once you get used to their recoil characteristics. There is the normal recoil of a springer which (it seems to me) appears slightly increased in these guns. It may be because the woodwork only extends to the butt stock only( ie they dont have a wooden fore-end like the webley MK3.) so your front hand lies directly on metal.
That said, they are very accurate and quite capable (in good condition) of dealing with rabbits out to 35yds plus in .22 (or .177 if you have one of the longer models only). The "L" or ladies patterns are no good for vermin control in my opinion as they had a shorter cylinder.
The barrels were virtually hand made and the rifling was singly broached into the bore so you will find them amongst the most accurate Vintage barrels made. Also the sights on these early BSA are superbly made and about as precise as it is possible to get open sights. It is very possible to go for rabbit head shots with them out to 25 yds easily as long as the foresight is un-broken (often you find the fore-sight bead is missing from the tip of the fore sight, and it has been filed to a rough point so check these very carefully) .

As for power, a good example - well lubed and with a newish spring should throw out around 10.5 ft lbs. which is adequate for vermin a medium ranges. Power is not the point with these guns however, it is the accuracy that you get which is the main winning point and the knowledge that you are firing one of the first factory mass produced british airguns made, which will probably be around 80-90 years old.

In my opinion these guns are pure magic, and deserve to be used. Once you try hunting with one, you will be out with it all the time.

regard's

Lakey

[Lakey]

Benchstop,

One thing I forgot to mention is that whilst they are quite capable of groups of 1" to 1.5" at 25 metres, (if the gun is in good sound nick) this takes a fair bit of practice to achieve, so I for one would practice on paper first and would only go out after vermin once I could consistently get those accuracy levels regularly. One thing is for sure it is a lot harder that shooting with a scope, but on the plus side it is a lot more rewarding and it carries with it a great sence of achievement when done well.

Lakey

[felix gunner]

Lakey,

You are making me more and more anxious to lay my hands on one. Nothing around that I can see from dealers or private sellers - if you can help me locate a nice example via your contacts please send a PM!

[NortonAMC]

Felix.

Livens have one. imp mod D

http://www.livens.co.uk/sh_guns.ihtml

£100 plus they want £20 to post, I phoned them up and got a strange
women who did not seem to understand what I wanted!!!

Anyway give them a try.


Mike.

[felix gunner]

Cheers Mike,

I gave them a call - guess you were unlucky - I got a very helpful guy! The model was a little early for me but thanks anyway.

[benchstop]

Your enthusiasm is infectious! ok so this year I will buy something, but what?
I would be looking for one that is ubicquitus rather than highly collectable, and whats the general opinion on working on them, is it wise to restore to as new, or leave alone and preserve the history?
Would it be a hanging offence to put on a scope rail, and modest scope?:o

regards Mike

[benchstop]

I mean UBIQUITOUS

[Lakey]

Benchstop,

If I were you, and was after my first pre war BSA underleaver (as this class of airgun is often collectively called) I would go for a post WW1 BSA "Standard" in No 2 Bore (.22). These were manufactured between 1920-21 and 1935ish . They are amongst the more common of the underleavers and are one of the longest they made at 45.5 inches long. They are sometimes called the "Giant" or "Sporting pattern" underleavers which differentiates them from the .177 version (manufactured at the same time) which was the Light or ladies pattern.This had a much shorter cylinder and was less powerful.
A good servicable example should cost around £100 - £180 approx. This should get you a complete gun with all original parts. It would probably have around 50% original bluing remaining (although often the bluing has changed to an overall blueish/brownish patina). If feel that this is in keeping with the gun of that age and is an original "time earned" feature of older guns which I quite like.

That gun will probably need to be dismantled (easy !) and a new spring fitted, as well as a good clean up inside. By that I mean that over the years the grease and old lubricant turns to a kind of thick sludge and often encrusts parts like the spring, spring guide, and piston. this needs to be removed and replaced by a good moly grease. Examine the piston washer well as they often look whole when first removed from the gun, however when examined often fall to bit or have pellets, bits of metal, wire and other crap embedded in them or alternatively they are just falling to bits. I always replace the piston washer as a matter of course with all "new ones" that I buy, as a safety precaution.

You can try to tune the guns by using modern methods however I do not bother as I think they are fine as they are and it is accuracy over power that you are after anyway.

Finally once you have put the gun together again, it will need to be run in over a couple of tins of pellets, and then you will emerge the other side with something that should give you hours of pleasure and ought to last at least another 80-100years at least.. then you too will discover the joy of fireing these beauties.......


Lakey ( a borne BSA underleaver man :D )

[silva]

Hello Folks,

How do you feel about Benchstops scope rail suggestion ?

I must admit I've considered the ethics of scoping one of these myself.

Though perhaps the whole point of these air rifles, is that they are from an era where the rifleman really had to consider his shot placement and sight picture, without the luxury of modern optics.

However if you were restoring a scrapper or parts gun for field use, perhaps if you used say, a set of period 1920's /30's Parker Hale steel bases and windage adjustable mounts with a suitable old quality 22mm tube scope, it would be ok.
Failing that, one of the steel 50's / 60's 3/4 tube American Weaver scopes would also look fine and not be out of place.
It would probably be cheaper than replacing the open sights if they were missing !

I certainly wouldn't consider drilling and tapping a good or even fair condition example, but on a bitza or parts gun, I think it would be ok, so long as you used suitable componants.

Best Regards Morgan

[benchstop]

The problem with mounting a scope of course, is that it's rather an irreversible step. To scope an excellent example would be frowned upon I know, but at the same time the gun has to be approaching that to make it worthwhile:confused:


Mike

[felix gunner]

Lakey, just to come back to the advice you and Silva gave to me earlier. Were the pre 14-18 rifles in .177 standard version or light pattern - I'm confused on this or how to tell. Is it just the length or were all pre WW1 Improved Model D rifles available in .177/.22 and 39" and 45" and standard and light etc...?

Basically I want to know how to be sure I have a 'full power' (as it was then) Improved Model D but would prefer .177 with 'pistol grip' stock - what length should it be?

[Lakey]

Hi Felix,

According to John Knibbs is his excellent book " BSA and LINCOLN JEFFRIES AIR RIFLES - A Concise Illustrated History of their Development and Manufacture 1904-1918 " The first known Improved Model D rifle is number 19236 which left the factory on 6th May 1908. Production ended in 1918.

During that period Rifles in all three calibres were produced No.1 Bore (.177), No.2 Bore (.22) and No.3 Bore (.25), with the Improved Model D inscription.
These rifles were produced in the following designations :-
Light Pattern,Standard or Ordinary Pattern, Standard Sporting Pattern (451/2") and two very short models known as the Junior and Juvenile Patterns.
Light Patterns were 39.5", Ordinary Patterns were 43.5", Sporting patterns were 45.5" and Junior Models were 34.25" only.

Hope that helps and if possible get the above book as probably all your questions will be answered within its pages.

All the best

Lakey

[Lakey]

Felix,

If you want a No.1 Bore "full powered" Improved model D. The one you want would be an Standard Ordinary Pattern 43.5" Straight hand Stock model with a serial number between 65000 and 80000. these serial numbers are only approximate, however within these ranges you would be 98% sure of getting a rifle produced during the 1914 to 1918 period.
The "Long" Sporting patterns were only produced in .22 and .25 only, however there were some (.25) No.3 Bore weapons produced in the light pattern length of 39.5" these were really underpowered and you would have probably been better off throwing a half brick :D :D :D :D


Lakey

[Lakey]

As for putting a scope on a BSA pre war underleaver:eek:

I have just such a beast. I bought it some years ago in a local auction and it has a 4X32 scope complete with high mounts on a Webley Mk3 Type spot welded ramp.

In my humble opinion the bloke what done it should be burnt alive at the stake

(but I am only a moderate :p )

Lakey:D

[benchstop]

Point taken:o

[Lakey]

Benchstop you have PM

[felix gunner]

Thanks Lakey, appreciated once again. I will look out for the book.

Finally, you mention:

If you want a No.1 Bore "full powered" Improved model D. The one you want would be an Standard Ordinary Pattern 43.5" Straight hand Stock model with a serial number between 65000 and 80000. these serial numbers are only approximate, however within these ranges you would be 98% sure of getting a rifle produced during the 1914 to 1918 period.

Was the pistol stock not a standard feature (option?) then?

Don't have one for sale do you?!!! :D

[Lakey]

Felix,

You could have a choice - Pistol Grip stock or Straight hand (which was cheaper) I believe there are more pistol Grip stocks around than straight hand but I could be wrong?

As for one for sale? I don't at the moment but I will let you know if I locate an example of what you are looking for.
All the best

Lakey

[felix gunner]

You're a gentleman. Just afraid by starting this topic and judging by some replies I might be competing with a few others now... :)

[benchstop]

Lakey, you have pm.

[Lakey]

Felix,

They made 80,000 of them, I am sure there should be enough to go around. :D

Your requirements are a little more detailed than most I would guess, but I will keep my eye's peeled.

lakey

[sparko]

Hello chaps, just for information the rifle i have here s/no 21001 measures 45.5 inches, so i take from your post that it will be a `sporting`.....I have recently fallen in love with a `lightning xl`after being an airsporter man for years... but always had B.S.A at heart I do love tradition and continuity.. Mark

[silva]

Hello Mark,

You have a great air rifle there and one of the most desirable early Bsa's.
These were the first volume produced rifled examples, of what was then a new airgun calibre - .22 - Generally everything was .177 or .25 before this.
Had the Germans invaded, I reckon it would have been a very unlucky Jerry that got shot with that !

Best Regards Morgan

[felix gunner]

Anyone got any thoughts on the merits of .22 vs .177 on rifles of this era (power/accuracy/characteristics/pellet drop etc)? I have little experience in this area...