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Hares Ear
05-12-2003, 08:27 PM
I recently part exchanged a Ruger .17HMR for an Anschutz 1417 .22LR. I had not been satisfied with certain functions of the Ruger, and the calibre was totally unsuitable for the work I need a rimfire for.

The Anschutz is a walnut stocked thumbhole version. I chose this rifle after considering another Ruger, a Sako and BRNO. The overall appearance and finish of the Anschutz set it apart from the other makes I have listed, or at least from the models I was shown at the gun shop I dealt with. Also the short overall length of the Anschutz was an obvious bonus when shooting from a vehicle or off the quad bike. When fitted with a sound moderator the gun was shorter than most other makes without moderators fitted. I chose the thumbhole stock because it felt more comfortable than conventional ‘pistol grips’. I am not as supple as I used to be, and I find many pistol grips to be angled too steep to be comfortable for me.

I am rather old fashioned as far as barrels are concerned, and usually prefer longer barrels, convincing myself they are essential to get decent accuracy. After consulting several people with more experience than me, I was assured that the 14 inch Anschutz barrel is an accurate enough tool.

The finish of the walnut stock was not to my liking. It is finished with the usual varnish/lacquer, leaving it very flat and almost yellow in colour. The chequering is adequate with 16 lines to the inch.
I stripped the stock quite easily with varnish remover, and achieved a satisfactory finish with CCL gunstock oil. There was no need to use any stain as the wood took on a nice dark brown appearance just by oiling.

The barrel is fully floating, and did not need any bedding to the action, or wood removing from the fore end. Although I had to sand some wood from the rear of the stock to ease the bolt, as it touched the stock slightly when operated.
The action is easily removed from the stock, by removing two slot head machine screws, one in the floor plate in front of the magazine slot, and the other at the rear of the trigger guard.

The magazine has a 10 shot capacity, and is a slightly curved steel bodied affair, which is easy to fill, and works perfectly. It is also very easy to strip if you need to clean it.
To remove the magazine from the action a tab, situated in the floor plate behind the magazine is pushed forward, and then the magazine can easily be grasped, and pulled from the action.

I ran the barrel in by using the usual shoot one clean one method.
Whilst doing this I tried several sound moderators, eventually settling for the SAK. Not only for performance, but for it’s short length and lightness compared to some other makes.

I tried Winchester, CCI, RWS, and Eley ammunition.
I found RWS to be dangerous through my gun. After half a dozen very inaccurate shots, they actually started clipping the moderator to such an extent, damage would have occurred by firing more.
Winchester’s did not group well. They were nearly an inch and a half, at 40 yards with five shots.
CCI’s grouped at just over half an inch at the same distance.
Eley’s grouped at 3/8s of an inch, making neat little clover leaf shaped holes. So needless to say, Eley Extra Plus are now my firm favourite through the 1417.

What can I say about the Anschutz Trigger? I find it to be near perfect. It has an easy, but good to feel first stage, with a very crisp, drag free second stage. You do not need to be built like the Terminator to pull the trigger, it operates at a 2lb pull straight from the box. There is no stripping and polishing with carborundum stones required, with an Anschutz trigger.

The bolt is easy to cycle, with a large round knob on the end of the handle.
To remove the bolt, the trigger has to be pulled, and a small button pushed on the opposite side of the action to the bolt handle. The bolt can then be pulled out of the action. Although it does become slightly stiff, and feels hard to pull just before it clears the action. Newness? I will find out in time.

The safety catch is a manually operated, two position, rocking device. situated just behind the bolt handle. Rock it forward to fire, rearwards for safe.

Now the bad points.

The action was probably designed round a standard stock, which when fitted to the Thumbhole stock, makes the safety catch impossible to reach with your thumb, without completely removing your hand from the grip, and then it is not easy to find without looking. Annoying when a target presents a chance of a snap shot. In fact I find it easier to cycle the bolt than release the safety catch. So I totally ignore the safety, and only chamber a round when a shot presents itself.

There is no indexing/locking facility on the bolt. It is very, very easy to knock the bolt up slightly, which stops the pin hitting the round, resulting in a misfire and a lost opportunity of a successful shot. At first I suspected that it was me being clumsy, but I am not so sure. I would welcome other peoples views on this.

The case ejection on my gun, is barely adequate. The empties hardly clear the receiver, and sometimes fall back in, stopping the bolt from closing. Although they are easily cleared by tilting the rifle over, and simply allowing the offending case to drop out.

In conclusion, despite the faults I find with my gun. I find the Anschutz 1417 a very light, extremely comfortable, fast handling, and accurate gun. It is ideal for the purposes I require a rimfire for. Short to medium range general vermin control, especially lamping at night. It is easy to use, and absolutely loads of fun to shoot with.
I regularly take shots out to eighty yards, beyond that accuracy does open up a bit. But I am sure the 1417 was never intended to be a long range sniping gun.
If your requirements of a .22LR are similar to mine, I would not hesitate to recommend the Anschutz 1417.

Robin

Chris (South Ronaldsay)
05-12-2003, 09:57 PM
Great review! One question. Do you find the 64 action noisy in operation compared to the Ruger?

Titan
06-12-2003, 07:18 AM
I also owned a 1417 (thumbhole stock) and would agree with the comments made by Hare's Ear. There are a few points I would add:
1.The ten shot magazine supplied with the rifle would often jam. I more often relied on the five shot version which never caused problems. The ten shot magazine that I had from another Anschutz did not have this problem.I have heard of other 10 shot magazines jamming, maybe there is a quick fix?
2.The bolt clicked twice on opening, but was reasonably quiet when operated very slowly. I doubt that it was loud enough at worst to spook anything. The most irritating feature of the bolt was the inability to lock it down. When carrying the rifle by the sling the bolt would inevitably pop open to the first detent and it always had to be checked before taking aim.
3.When an Anschutz is purchased the first thought is accuracy potential. Here I was disappointed, when compared to other Anschutz .22LR rifles I have fired. At 55yd it could group 0.5", but more often much larger and rarely smaller. This level of accuracy is perfectly adequate for the intended purpose of this style of rifle, but a 1710 it is not. On one occasion I fired a Rapid 17 (21ftlb/Premier 10.5gr)side by side with the 1417 and the Rapid grouped tighter at 55yd. At longer range (115yd) the best group was 0.9", but more often greater than 1.5" using Lapua Master ammunition. I sold the 1417 to buy a 1710 HB - this rifle will regularly shoot inside one inch at 115yd with Eley HVHP and Subsonic ammunition, but with different trajectories.

Regards

Titan

baz
06-12-2003, 07:54 AM
Nice review, I have had one of these too and agree with everything said, I found the 5 shot mag nicer to use, or the 10 shot was better if only loaded with 9 rounds

I did find the bolt very clicky as on other models of this make

Great trigger though, identical to the one on the earlier MKII Rapid

I sold mine mainly because I like to use thumb up style and the stock wouldnt allow this

baz

leupy
06-12-2003, 01:51 PM
I also have one of these, and would agree with some of the comments, but have never had a problem with ejection or with safety catch operation. The latter maybe because I modified the stock for thumb-up position as soon as I got it. It was easily done and only took about an hour.
Mis-fires due to bolt being slightly displaced in the up position, continue to annoy.

Chris (South Ronaldsay)
06-12-2003, 04:17 PM
Titan, Baz posted some months ago that the problem with the accuracy of the carbine was a result of the barrel being too short to ensure powder burn (other than with pistol cartridges). I have a long barreled '64 action rifle (already reviewed) and it's plenty accurate.

Hares Ear
06-12-2003, 05:36 PM
Thanks for the feedback lads.
It seems the lack of indexing or locking of the bolt is a problem with other peoples guns, as in my own.

I have two ten shot mags, one I bought from Ed W recently. I have had no trouble with either of them, yet!

I must admit, I have not paid much attention to the noise of the bolt cycle, but I will be listening intently on Monday night.

The safety catch is still a problem for me. The thumbhole grip was one of the reasons I bought the 1417. I find it is the most comfortable type of grip for me. A push button safety on the trigger or in the trigger guard, would surely be sensible with the thumbhole stock.

As I said in my revue, the short barrel probably loses accuracy at long ranges (100 yds etc.) but that is not the type of shooting I am doing. The .243 or the head keepers .22-250 comes out for the long jobs.

But when all said and done, I absolutely adore shooting my stumpy little Anschutz. It is the most fun I have had with a bolt action rimfire. <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_smile.gif" alt="Smile" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::)-->

Robin

Chris (South Ronaldsay)
06-12-2003, 06:25 PM
Robin, it's funny but I actually find the safety EASIER to operate with gloves on. I always make sure the bolt is all the way down before taking a shot. I don't find the problem THAT annoying. For all it's quirks, the rifle is a real pleasure to use.

stillair1
06-12-2003, 06:55 PM
Can't argue with whats been said. I bought mine when they first came out, before the prices dropped. I found the standard stock a bit hit and miss regarding eye relief so I invested in a Gary Kane for it.
The safety catch on mine is still stiff as hell, but the bolt action is free enough now to cycle with two fingers. Will post pics when I get a chance.
By the way mine came with one of those silencers that has a spring and aluminium conal (?) baffles inside it. Be warned they are a complete b***er to get apart once the baffles are coated in crude.

leupy
07-12-2003, 02:42 PM
Interesting point stillair1, because I know several people who have one, have read several editorial articles about them, and ALL have indicated that the gun comes complete with moderator.
But mine most emphatically didn't, and even the importer I'm sure told me a porkie, saying that they had NEVER sold one, or seen one come complete with a sound moderator <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt="Roll Eyes" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::rolleyes:-->

Is this just a reflection of the "lower" price? <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_confused.gif" alt="Confused" width="15" height="22"><!--graemlin::confused:-->

Chris (South Ronaldsay)
16-01-2004, 04:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by leupy:
and even the importer I'm sure told me a porkie, saying that they had NEVER sold one, or seen one come complete with a sound moderator <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt="Roll Eyes" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::rolleyes:-->
[/quote]

Frank Dyke employs at least one pathalogical liar. When asked about a .17HMR replacement barrel for a 64 action 15xx WMR, the bloke I spoke to replied that the .17HMRs have different bolts - furthermore these bolts had required a huge investment by Anschutz in new machinery to make. When I pointed out this was BS as the .17HMR uses the .22WMR as its parent case, he rapidly recanted with "that may be so, but Anschutz have a 6 month waiting list for new rifles and I'm sure they won't be interested in making spare barrels until after they've caught up".

Top company. Top importer. <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt="Roll Eyes" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::rolleyes:-->

leupy
17-01-2004, 12:32 PM
......Talking about pathological liars,
LITT'S gunshop in Wales are pathological kleptomaniacs AS WELL!

The georgeous Ripley that I sold to a chap in California through the BBS, had the misfortune to be routed through them for the FAC Export. Litt's rifled over a hundred quids worth of parts and extras, that I had included in the parcel, on their "re-packaging" for export. <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_mad.gif" alt="Mad" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::mad:--> <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_mad.gif" alt="Mad" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::mad:-->

What I really feel about them is unprintable! <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_mad.gif" alt="Mad" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::mad:-->

Hares Ear
17-01-2004, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by leupy:
Litt's rifled over a hundred quids worth of parts and extras, that I had included in the parcel, on their "re-packaging" for export[/quote]

Iwould have been ringing the police, that sounds like theft mate

Robin

leupy
18-01-2004, 12:47 PM
I would have dearly liked to Robin, but it took me a long time to get feedback from California, as to exactly what was missing. I kept telling the guy in California that time was of the essence, but he took weeks to respond properly. In the meantime I was blowing a gasket about it and meeting a brick wall with Litt's.
...Gold plated muzzle crown, hammers, tools, laminated trigger diagram, instructions, gold plated trigger blades, cleaning pellets, + lots more, and surprise surprise, inventory of my package contents........ The surly bloke at the other end of the phone just said "don't know anything about any of that mate".
<img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_mad.gif" alt="Mad" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::mad:--> <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_mad.gif" alt="Mad" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::mad:--> <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_mad.gif" alt="Mad" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::mad:-->

It's just as well they were in Wales, and me in Aberdeen I tell you <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_mad.gif" alt="Mad" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::mad:-->.

They also got a mint Ripley moderator, "for destruction", as I had to get it off my FAC. I'll bet they flogged that too! .....should have squashed it in a vice before I sent it, but it was such a beautiful piece of kit, I couldn't do it.

The missus was getting concerned about all my sleepless nights and the fact that the veins on my temples were starting to stick out and pulsate rather violently whenever I thought about it. She said "you got the money, and the guy in California got the gun and is happy with it, so leave it at that"

Eventually I did! <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_mad.gif" alt="Mad" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::mad:-->, but I'll never forgive them or forget about it!

Hares Ear
18-01-2004, 07:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by leupy:
She said "you got the money, and the guy in California got the gun and is happy with it, so leave it at that"[/quote]

It's not that easy though is it. When you try do do someone a favour, and an intermediary creams of the deal and makes some plunder out of it.
I would feel just the same

Robin

leupy
19-01-2004, 09:50 AM
No Robin, it ain't easy, and still upsets me.

Life's often like that though, you've just got to let it go.

........like the £60 fine (+ 3 points) I got recently, for driving at 42 mph on a straight piece of DUAL CARRIAGEWAY in Glasgow at 1.30 am, with not another car in sight. Turned out to be a 30 limit, not the 50 I expected <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_frown.gif" alt="Frown" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::(-->
The missus and me were both scanning for road signs, but neither of us saw the alleged 30 plate.

You've just got to let these things go my friend!

stillair1
20-01-2004, 06:20 PM
When I bought my carbine, the factory thumbhole was still on the drawing board and as with several makes of rimfires, they feel a bit small after using full size air rifles. So as you do, I chucked a bit more money at it and invested a custom stock from Mr Cane.
The stock is made of beech laminate stain nearly black, but with detail showing through. Can't fault it in anyway except the twopack acrylic finish is prone to the odd chip and not easily refinished. Doing it again I would have requested an oil finish.
Accuracy from mine varied from 1/2 to 3/4" at 50yds when new. I'm now getting more 1/2" er's, but the occasional flyer has ruined many groups. I put it down to the mutt behind the butt mostly.
Best ammo is currently Lapua hp with eley hp close behind.
The rifle used to group very well with Tennex, but in the last test session it was spraying them. Perhaps a clean is in order.
Another thing that irritates is the non extraction of live rounds once seated. The chamber has always been tight, so I don't think that its due to clagg, just the inability of the extractor.
If I was to throw more money at it, I would go for a heavier barrel, or heavier silencer to stop the tad of muzzle flip.
The only rifle I would swap it for would be the Sako Varmint or a 1700HB, but then I would loose on the weight front as the 1417 is just the job when you want to take out two rifles and put one over your shoulder. Horses for courses.

http://www.fotango.com/p/eba00366577f00000009.jpg

Hares Ear
21-01-2004, 07:05 PM
What a cracking piece of kit that baby is stillair. <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="Big Grin" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::D--> <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="Big Grin" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::D--> <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="Big Grin" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::D--> <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="Big Grin" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::D-->

I was shooting on a range last night as it happens, Most of my groups are a half inch at 40 yards, the best is a quarter of an inch.

My 1417 extracts live rounds O.K. and ejects them further than spent cases.

Despite the few misgivings I spoke about in my review, the 1417 is doing my job faultlessly. I do not think a longer .22 rimmie would be in the same league as far as handling and shootability is concerned.

Robin

stillair1
01-02-2004, 04:47 PM
Could be my old ten shot mag you have there Robin if it came from Ed W via Nevetas. Never hardly used it myself as I prefered the five shot.

Hares Ear
01-02-2004, 07:05 PM
I got it from Ed W, so it is probably your old one. It's still working. <img src="http://jsramsbottom.co.uk/bbs/e/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="Big Grin" width="15" height="15"><!--graemlin::D-->

Robin

Mousemann
03-04-2006, 11:04 AM
I've just bought a 1417 with a SAK mod, and very pleased with it. I notice that (in terms of feeding capabilities) it seems to favour Winchester subsonics, Yellow Jackets and CCI Velocitors, but completely hates CCI Stingers and CCI subsonics. The CCI subsonics seem a real struggle to chamber, which appears to be due to a fractionally higher ridge on the bullet. In other words, the 1417 seems to like conical bullets rather than rounded ones. Is this the case in others' experience?

I wanted to find out what the best bore guide for this gun might be. I've ordered a generic one, but is there something specific for this gun? Any other hints as to cleaning? The dealer I got it from said to never clean it, but I can't just leave powder fouling up the thing; that seems to me negligent. Any advice gratefully received :)

Mousemann

arjimlad
03-04-2006, 02:43 PM
Great review.

Still love my CZ, but this is a very well written review.

Ta !

EGGY
05-04-2006, 09:17 AM
Good review Ilike my .22 so much I bought the .17 to go with it , same action so the stocks are interchangable , never had any feed problems and I have 3 mags. If you are firm with the action the cases are elected well clear, however the lack of detent on the bolt is annoying

Mousemann
07-04-2006, 04:14 PM
Pal of mine has the Anschutz 1517 in .17HMR too. Not sure if I want two guns the same yet, although his .17 is amazing.

Have gone ahead and ordered a bore guide, and garnered what cleaning advice I can from Anschutz themselves. That's still in the post apparently.

I can just about get the bolt out of my 1417 OK by rotating it at the part where it comes into two halves. But the same friend above can't get the bolt out of his .22 as the comb is in the way. Is there often this much variation in the stock build of these weapons?

cos.mos
10-05-2006, 10:24 PM
Pal of mine has the Anschutz 1517 in .17HMR too. Not sure if I want two guns the same yet, although his .17 is amazing.

Have gone ahead and ordered a bore guide, and garnered what cleaning advice I can from Anschutz themselves. That's still in the post apparently.

I can just about get the bolt out of my 1417 OK by rotating it at the part where it comes into two halves. But the same friend above can't get the bolt out of his .22 as the comb is in the way. Is there often this much variation in the stock build of these weapons?

I have both the .22lr 1417 and the .17hmr 1517. I bought the .17 after using the 1417 for a couple of years. Both are great guns and I find them very accurate off a harris bipod. Any rabbits up to 100 yards are certain kills in virtually all conditions and 125 yards in good conditions using eley hollow extra plus. The .17 takes over from where the .22 finishes really, and any rabbits 100 - 150 yards (125 zero) are certain in almost all conditions, longest 200 yards in very good conditions.

The ten shot mags can be a little tricky with the first round out but are fine on the rest - yes the bolt is a bugger until I got used to checking with my thumb after releasing the safety each time - no problems since. The safety s a hard to push awkward location carbuncle and should be sorted but I guss the German's are not going to bother with that.

The short barrels on both the 1417 and 1517 don't offer any problems and the guns handle the same, in fact if you own a 1417 and are thinking of a .17 then you should really consider the 1517 on the grounds that it has the same balance and once you know how to shoot one accurately the other will come straight away too.

Interestingly, the 1417 is a hand chequered stock and the 1517 a laser chequered stock I think - both are the sporter style. Both have that rather thick but well applied varnish which as they age gets a shine where it is handled - I will oil mine when they get tatty (strio firsy of course) as I believe that the wood underneath is not bad and will get better when hand rubbed.

I believe that anyone who buys a 1417 or a 1517 will not be disappointed provided that they study their technique. I think that there are cheaper guns out there that shoot as well given some careful fettling and perhaps a few more quid, but the 1417 and 1517 are very competant and complete packages.

cos.mos;)

Mushi
24-05-2006, 11:15 AM
I have witnessed .17 HMR's in the field and do not rate them in terms of accuracy, orthe fact that they appear to need a lot of cleaning after a relatively short period of use. They are also loud. I have a Anschutz target .22 lr, using PMC Moderators' at 950 fps. with a silencer on there is absolutely no noise and it does the business at 100m. I would not swap it for anything.

cos.mos
24-05-2006, 06:19 PM
I have witnessed .17 HMR's in the field and do not rate them in terms of accuracy, orthe fact that they appear to need a lot of cleaning after a relatively short period of use. They are also loud. I have a Anschutz target .22 lr, using PMC Moderators' at 950 fps. with a silencer on there is absolutely no noise and it does the business at 100m. I would not swap it for anything.

Your experience is certainly not mine, I rarely clean the .17 and in fact when I do the accuracy takes a few shots to return. Other .17's that I have come across are equally accurate, CZ and Savage. I would say that judging by the bulk of replies your's is a minority opinion.

c ya

cos.mos

Microtia
10-10-2006, 07:29 AM
I have had one of these for several years, and generally like it very much indeed. Problems I found were:

It was fussy as regards sound moderators. Don't know whether the concentricity of the threading on mine is a little out, but I've eventually settled on a steel Parker Hale. Not the quietest, but then neither is the rifle due to the short barrel. It does produce the best accuracy, though.

I was always used to never cleaning a rimfire, and it didnt seem to to make much difference. Not so with this one. A good clean produces staggering accuracy with Eley subs, probably for 100rds or so. Use it frequently to 100 yds or so. Very few bunnies get away.

The bolt is a pain. It is so easy to inadvertently lift it up, and it then won't fire. Stripping the bolt is easy, but getting it back together again so it goes back into the rifle isn't. I was shooting a gallery rifle comp with it at Bisley, when the bolt sort of undone itself after a misfire during a timed sequence. Managed to reassemble it -just.

Never had a problem with ejection. Only have 10 rd mags- always load with 9.
I glasspapered the stock where it had become shiny due to use/skin contact, then oiled it. Came out a nice light matt finish- much better than the varnish..

It is the best rimfire for vehicle use due to the length. Also, with a lamp mounted, the thumbhole is less of a strain on the wrist when you scan at night.

jonrms
10-10-2006, 09:01 AM
I love my Anschutz.. and to prove it... heres a pic of my bruno and my anschutz together... the bruno.. is the one without the sound mod on.. but there both great!!!!

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2412/important003xo0.th.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=important003xo0.jpg)

Chris St. MH
15-10-2006, 11:55 AM
I love my Anschutz.. and to prove it... heres a pic of my bruno and my anschutz together... the bruno.. is the one without the sound mod on.. but there both great!!!!

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2412/important003xo0.th.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=important003xo0.jpg)

Could you please post a bigger pic? I'd like a better look (nice rifles!).

jonrms
16-10-2006, 12:00 PM
Could you please post a bigger pic? I'd like a better look (nice rifles!).

PM me your address and I will send them to you....

I cant do it on here for some reason..... it always shows up as too big of file... and I am clueless of how to shrink them... so email is great.. or anyone else who knows how.. pm me... i will email the pic to you..

patsmash41
01-01-2007, 09:35 PM
heres a picture of mine