Competition pistol choice?

[fcat]

I'm after some advice....

After a lifetime of desultory shooting, I'm looking to take up target pistol shooting and doing some competitions - standard single shot 10m postal stuff initially, moving up proper events and maybe some five shot events too as I gain experience.

The overall question is what gun to get. I've talked to a few people and done some internet research and come up with the main brands, e.g. Steyr, Morini, Hammerli, FWB, Walther, etc.

I've also looked at the cost and swallowed hard - getting through £1500 on a gun and required extras looks frighteningly easy.
But, I do take the view that money spent on quality is often better than trying to do the job on the cheap. However good I may or may not be, I have no chance of getting good results with poor kit. Also good quality doesn't go out of fashion that quickly so depreciation might not be too bad on a good pistol. I know this is all pretty true in club motorsport but is it true of pistol shooting? Should I buy expensive new stuff or go for mid range kit initially, is second hand a realistic option given that the depth of my knowledge is limited and I might not spot a duff one?

Next, taking Steyr as a benchmark. The LP10 looks to be pretty good but the LP50 would give me that five shot capability for a greater range of competitions. Ignoring the extra cost, does the 5 shot design significantly compromise the pistol for single shot use ? (LP50 does have a single shot mag which makes it legal)

Finally, I'm edging towards Steyr over the other brands but it seems very subjective. Some people reckon the Morini electric has the best trigger but the batteries/electronics limit the adjustablility of the grip. FWB are clearly good but are they worth the extra money? Any recommendations, any objective reasons for choice here or is it really down to personal preference? (Oooh, nice paintjob - and yes I have seen race cars sold on that alone!)

Advice on these points and anything else that I should be thinking about would be gratefully received.

regards
Nigel

[northern35s]

How much you want to spend is entirely up to you, I spent £140 on a secondhand Alpha Proj that was shooting as well as, if not better than, a Steyr LP50 last night at my club. Alpha Proj and Air Arms have joined together to produce a PCP taget pistol:

Air Arms (http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=1564)

Not yet released in the UK, but expect it to cost in the region of £450, there are also single stroke pneumatic pistols to consider, that said, if an LP50 is your thing then go for it, I'm more than sure you won't be disappointed :)

[SteveR]

Should I buy expensive new stuff or go for mid range kit initially, is second hand a realistic option given that the depth of my knowledge is limited and I might not spot a duff one?


Hi Nigel,

Welcome to the BBS, and to Target Shooting :)

Generally my advice would be to try and get your hands on as many different types as possible, since its not until you actually feel one that you can find out which best suits you. I was lucky enough to find a shop that stocked quite a few of the candidates, and when I picked them up one by one I knew exactly which felt right for me (LP10).

If you can visit a club thats another advantage since there are often members willing to let you try theirs so you can really get a feel for them. You could try the club finder on the nsra website:

http://www.nsra.co.uk




After a lifetime of desultory shooting, I'm looking to take up target pistol shooting and doing some competitions - standard single shot 10m postal stuff initially, moving up proper events and maybe some five shot events too as I gain experience.

People generally tend to go for a single shot for the 10M Precision, and a multi shot for the rapid fire events. Which as you know can end up being rather expensive. I think a lot of reasons for this is to do with the trigger on the multi shot Pistols.



The overall question is what gun to get. I've talked to a few people and done some internet research and come up with the main brands, e.g. Steyr, Morini, Hammerli, FWB, Walther, etc.

Each of those manufacturers produce excellent Air Pistols, the only real deciding factor is how they feel to you when you handle them. In terms of price there isn't that much in it your going to be looking at around the 1,000 mark for each when new.



Next, taking Steyr as a benchmark. The LP10 looks to be pretty good but the LP50 would give me that five shot capability for a greater range of competitions. Ignoring the extra cost, does the 5 shot design significantly compromise the pistol for single shot use ? (LP50 does have a single shot mag which makes it legal)

The major difference is that the LP50's trigger isn't as good as the LP10 trigger (not as configurable) - saying that I haven't shot an LP50 so I can't say from personal experience that its true.



Should I buy expensive new stuff or go for mid range kit initially, is second hand a realistic option given that the depth of my knowledge is limited and I might not spot a duff one?


I had a similar decision point, and went for the expensive. The logic I used was similar to your, that and the fact that the quality end tend to keep there re-sale value.

Also another thing to consider, if you do go for a more budget Pistol, then make sure it allows dry firing, otherwise you may find it limits you once you get into things.
Hope thats some help,

Cheers,

Steve.

[Firestorm]

Nigel,

Unfortunately I will never be allowed/afford to get a high value pistol, unless I sold my rifles and pistols.

But if I could, I would get the most expensive I could afford. It's not just about accuracy (that is a given above a certain price) it's generally about the better quality the more you pay, giving a longer life at that level of performance and less maintenance in the long run. And let's face it, more kudos and less devaluation.

Russ

[northern35s]

Nigel,

Unfortunately I will never be allowed/afford to get a high value pistol, unless I sold my rifles and pistols.

But if I could, I would get the most expensive I could afford. It's not just about accuracy (that is a given above a certain price) it's generally about the better quality the more you pay, giving a longer life at that level of performance and less maintenance in the long run. And let's face it, more kudos and less devaluation.

Russ


Interesting how you see the value of something equates to kudos, not what I'd have considered kudos to mean, normally kudos is attributed to someone with skill who has achieved something, not necessarily the achievement of buying something expensive, I know complete pillocks with lots of money :confused:

How do you equate the quality of your your AA S400, not very high?, seeing as it's not that expensive :p:)

[fcat]

I looked at a few pistols at my club but I have large shovels rather than hands so the grips haven't been that suitable which makes it tricky to get a proper feel. I am planning to go over to Bisley shop at the weekend as they appear to have quite a few decent pistols in stock. (I just know my credit card is going to get hammered!)

Interestingly, the LP50 has an optional interchangeable trigger assembly so it can run 200-600 and 400-1400. Neat huh!?
(I seem to talking myself into one of these without even seeing one yet!)

We all seem to agree that quality is worth the money and will help help at resale time (maybe "kudos" was the wrong word but I took that to mean Steyr's "reputation")

Oh dear. This is going to be expensive.


Final question, I can't see on Steyr's website what the muzzle energy is supposed to be or if the power is adjustable, anyone know? Not really critical as I'm sure its well set up, just curious...


cheers
Nigel

[Firestorm]

[QUOTE=northern35s;2790105], not what I'd have considered kudos to mean, normally kudos is attributed to someone with skill who has achieved something,
QUOTE]

Bugger off, smartarse.........:D:D:D;) they know what I mean...........

Russ

[sheene]

Go for the Alfa Project PCP, when they hit in England. I have one and it will outshoot me everytime!:D

[R davis]

These pistols are very good value for money.i have aeron B98, semi auto, 5 shots in 3 secs. dry firing, single shot mags as well. Afriend of mine has a Steyr, he used the aeron and had better results. aeron with morini grips fully adjustable. including compensator which is adjustable to allow better results for your chosen pellet. 80 shots. 200bar fill comes with 2 cylinders. you need a 232 adapter to fill cylinders which will screw into your air tank. you can get this from midland diving £32.

[tacfoley]

I bought the Feinwerkbau CP55 a few years back fully intending to use it for a range of air disciplines, only to find that I was not able to use it in UIT-type competitions because it is a five-shot. Sure, you can get a single-shot converter magazine, but it really is a PITA trying to shoot a comp with it.

My own fault - I should have looked into the future when I bought it.

I now shoot a pal's LH Steyr single-shot or my own old FAS604. Both shoot way better than I do, or ever could.

Every top level pistol will shoot way better than YOU ever will, too, so it really is, as already has been noted, down to you and the way you feel about it when it is in yor hand.

Make sure that you have two cylinders as well, and again make sure that both are full before you start a comp.

Don't ask me why this is so important.

Lots of luck.

tac

[P30man]

At the end of the day its the pistol that feels comfortable in your hand that is the best.
I am saving for the FWB P44, at the moment I shoot with the P30.
Start by buying a good second hand pistol and work your way up.
Good luck

[jonyb]

i think everybody has covered all the points.i can only add that my p.b. score of 555 at bisley with an lp5 has not been beaten by my other lp10.
i had a morini and found that the lack of adjustment in the grip was annoying as i shoot with a dropped wrist style,so the steyrs suited me better.a large range of different grips are available aftermarket for the steyrs. you could pick up a good s/h pistol for around £500 sterys,morinis etc. you dont need a lot of gear,just shooting frames/glasses,divers bottle or pump and shoes if you want to go the whole hog.
in my opinion if you are buying just one pistol go for the lp5/50,as it enables you to shoot more disiplines ,which equals more fun. dont let the trigger weights affect your judgement. for 10m precision shooting a minimum trigger weight of 500grms is required,once set leave it.
hope this is of some use.

[xbow]

I notice you're in Kent Nigel, but if you can take a trip to the NSRA shop in Bisley you can have a look at a good range of target pistols. They do have second hand stuff come up from time to time as well.

Vic.

[Prone Shooter]

At the end of the day its the pistol that feels comfortable in your hand that is the best.I am saving for the FWB P44, at the moment I shoot with the P30.
Start by buying a good second hand pistol and work your way up.
Good luck

Best bit of advice so far Nigel, from someone who I can assure you knows exactly what he's talking about.

Kudos won't win you silverware, the fanciest Steyr, Morini, FWB won't win you silverware. Only you will win the silverware, through hard work and lots and lots of practice. A natural ability will help as will a good pistol and by this I refer to the above names rather than twin master type guns. There are some good CO2, but I'd advise PCP every time.

Don't be afraid to go for a second hand pistol as long as its got a good history, i.e. a 10m shooter rather than someone who might use a Steyr LP50 as an outdoor HFT pistol. No disrespect to these shooters, but the fact they've used outside could mean more damp and dust has got into them.

Have a look at some of the other makes. I use a SAM K11 as do a number of members in our club. I like mine for the balance and oversized grip. The sights are clear as well. I couldn't get on with any of the Steyrs, but as Bob has said the P44 is special and if I thought I could improve, I'd be tempted.

Bottom line is, don't buy until you've tried. You'll get your money back on a second hand pistol and a high percentage of a new pistol. Get it right and you won't need to change.

Good luck

Bob (another one:rolleyes:)

[majex45]

For what its worth, I bought an LP10 off this board and have never regretted it (from Alwayslearning). You can spend weeks just tweeking the grip to get it just right. Then you can move the sights back & forth and the fun is endless. Then you can shoot it. It REALLY shows up bad technique, much more so than cartridge shooting.
I did handle a Morini last weekend and it lined up perfectly for me. I'd really like to try one out. I'm now after an LP50 for the cartridge replacement competitions (sportpistol etc).
Buy quality (even second hand) and you won't regret it.

[fcat]

thanks for all the input, guys. I'm off to the Bisley shop tomorrow to try a few, I'll let you know what happens next week...

[P30man]

Might see you there, I have to pick up a trigger test weight tomorrow afternoon.

[SteveR]

thanks for all the input, guys. I'm off to the Bisley shop tomorrow to try a few, I'll let you know what happens next week...

Last time I went to a shop to try a few I dented my Credit card :D. Hope you find the right pistol for you.

Cheers,

Steve.

[Peter Pig]

Somewhat of topic,will the Air Arms Alpha fit in the ISSF box? with the air cylinder in the grip it looks a bit lumpy.
I would hate to buy one and not be able to use it in comps.

[Falcon25]

I went through the same process myself and decided on a pistol based on spec. and popularity. However when I shot various pistols at the club I found I could achieve consistently better scores than any other pistol with a FWB P34 belonging to a club mate. In the end I tracked one down that is identical.

My advice would be not to buy new until you have shot that gun on the range and put through 20-30 shots to assess your performance. If you get started with any decent s/h top rank pistol you should be able to get most of the cost back to purchase new once you are sure it will give the best results to justify the investment.

I had a set of Rink grips made for my gun, as I don’t have standard Med. hands and they are a great improvement.

[P30man]

I agree with Falcon25, I had Rink grips made for my P30, it was like shooting with a new Pistol, now whether some of that was in the head or not I never worked it out, however it did improve the average and increase the prize count.:):D

[Iain K D]

Somewhat of topic,will the Air Arms Alpha fit in the ISSF box?

From the brief mention of it on P62 of the May issue of Target Sports (I'm not sure I want to quote that article again, mind):

"The pistol conforms to the ISSF dimensions for international air pistol competition "

Iain

[Peter Pig]

From the brief mention of it on P62 of the May issue of Target Sports (I'm not sure I want to quote that article again, mind):

"The pistol conforms to the ISSF dimensions for international air pistol competition "

Iain

Many thanks for that Ian, I knew someone would know.

Peter

[fcat]

I knew it was going to be a bad idea but I still went over to Bisley on Sat...

Credit card is in pain and will be for a while but what the hell, you only live once - although that could be quite a short life if SWMBO finds out what it cost..

Still, a Steyr LP50 is a very fine bit of kit, just hope I can shoot well enough to justify it. :)



Nothing to do with pistols, but on the sunject of debt, a wise man once said:

If you owe the bank 10 grand then you're in trouble. If you owe the bank 10 billion, then the bank's in trouble. Of course the clever trick is to get from the first situation to the second without the bank noticing...

[eredel]

I knew it was going to be a bad idea but I still went over to Bisley on Sat...

Credit card is in pain and will be for a while but what the hell, you only live once - although that could be quite a short life if SWMBO finds out what it cost..

Still, a Steyr LP50 is a very fine bit of kit, just hope I can shoot well enough to justify it. :)



Nothing to do with pistols, but on the sunject of debt, a wise man once said:

If you owe the bank 10 grand then you're in trouble. If you owe the bank 10 billion, then the bank's in trouble. Of course the clever trick is to get from the first situation to the second without the bank noticing...

As you probably tried them...how did the LP50 compare to the rest of the Steyrs such as LP5 and LP 10?....:)
Congrats on your purchase you lucky person!!!
Eric.

[fcat]

Eric,

Can't comment on the LP5 as I haven't tried it - I suspect it's off the product list and replaced by the LP50? I had a look at the FWB P44 which is simlar to the P10. Very nice indeed but a touch more expensive without any very obvious benefits. The shop didn't have a P58 in stock but at some £1300 it had rather ruled itself out. The Morini 162E with the electronic trigger was facinating but being a bit of a luddite, I feel pistols should be examples of precision mechanical engineering and I can't quite get on with using electonics. Pure prejudice I know. So back to Steyr and some comments and initial impressions.

The single shot LP10 & the 5 shot LP50 are, not surprisingly, very similar in many respects. Same range of grips, same adjustability, same sights, etc. The LP50 is slightly heavier by about 90gm but that extra weight - presumably associated with the magazine mechanism - is not really noticeable in any absolute sense and doesn't feel like it has altered the balance of the pistol significantly. (OK, my hands and arms were supplied by JCB, other more sensibly proportioned shooters may have the finesse to be able to appreciate the difference !)

The LP10 has a very smooth breech loading mechanism with a left hand side lever. This could be comfortably operated with my left hand without altering my right hand grip. The pellet has to be inserted into the barrel which is slightly fiddly rather than dropped into a tray/channel and having it pushed into the barrel by closing the breech.

The LP50 has a 5 shot magazine ( single shot and blank mags for rapid test firing are extras at around £30 a pop!). The magazine cannot be inserted or ejected unless the pistol is cocked. This is done by grasping a pair of latches, one on either side (just above the trigger on the main body) and sliding the pair back using finger and thumb on left hand. More pressure than you might think is required to do this but the actual movement is no more than a 1mm. This action is no where near as "natural" as the LP10 or other single shot pistols but is not a big deal if you can count - after each shot the mechanism is automatically cocked, so after 5 shots the mag is empty but the mech is cocked - eject the mag, refill it, slot it back in and away you go without having to re-cock it. If you pull the trigger a 6th time, there is a dry fire click (no air is used) and the pistol will need to be cocked again before the mag can be ejected. The mag is inserted from the left against a light spring and clicks home very positively. Following each shot, it clicks back out to the left to present the next pellet in the breech. I thought this "click through" might produce a slight twitch but I couldn't really detect anything. On completion the mag naturally ejects into your left hand when you press the release switch. Neat.

Using the single shot mag, which is a requirement for standard 10m precision shooting, is more of a bother on a per shot basis. Again, you should only need to cock the pistol once during the entire session but ejecting the mag, loading a pellet, then re-inserting the mag is always going to be a bit more effort than using a conventional single shot mechanism. I find I have to put the pistol down as I need two hands to load the magazine; maybe with practice I can do it all one-handed. Due to asymmetric channel/machining, the mag can only be inserted the correct way round but it is quite easy in the heat of the moment to load the pellet into mag from the wrong side...

However while the LP50 might be slightly compromised as a single shot pistol, it is superb in 5 shot mode. It is fast, slick and oh so easy to get through loads of pellets and air. Compared to the old gas-ram FWB that I've used before, there is almost no kick at all and it has instantly reduced the semi-random scatter that used to be so evident in my shooting. I haven't tried playing with the trigger which appears to have more adjustment options than I've had hot dinners... First I'll get used to the pistol, then set it correctly for 500gm and only then will I try meddling. Certainly out of the box, the trigger feels light and clean. Similarly I won't play yet with small additional weights that can be slotted down either side of the barrel housing. The only thing I may change in the near future is the grip. Currently its a "large" but I may exchange that for "XL"...

In summary, for actual single shot competition, I would speculate that the LP10 is a fraction better than the LP50 as it is slightly less bother to operate but that is all and that may diminish with familiarity. Clearly for any form of rapid fire/multi-shot competition, the LP50 is the only option. To me, the LP50 is better for practice as you can take advantage of the 5 shot mag to remain focused on shooting for longer. For any sort of beer can battering, inappropriate as it may be, the LP50 is hugely impressive. You pays your money and takes your choice. Certainly no regrets so far.

If anyone is interested, I'll post some more comments when I've had the chance to use the pistol a bit more.

[eredel]

Fcat....that is a very informative appraisal and has given me more information than all my googling and I thank you for it....:):).
I'm a backyard/garage shooter at the moment but I like to think given more time and finding a club that I'll probably only need a single shot but I definitely lean towards the LP50.....I do know of a lovely early LP1 going for about £500 which I think is perhaps a little pricey? (any comments as to this price would be greatly appreciated).
Keep us informed how you get on especially if the Single loading gets any easier with practice....once again...thanks for the feedback..:cool:
Regards...Eric.

[derekm]

I would suggest starting with either a new or S/H Gamo Compact or a S/H Tau, Aeron or Alpha CO2. These are all capable of averages in the 90s, if you are.

During the journey up to the high 80s or low 90s, try as many high end pistols as you can, to find out which really suits you best, before lashing out £1k or more. If you go S/H for your starter pistol, chances are you will lose little or nothing when and if you upgrade.

[jonyb]

Eric,

Can't comment on the LP5 as I haven't tried it - I suspect it's off the product list and replaced by the LP50? I had a look at the FWB P44 which is simlar to the P10. Very nice indeed but a touch more expensive without any very obvious benefits. The shop didn't have a P58 in stock but at some £1300 it had rather ruled itself out. The Morini 162E with the electronic trigger was facinating but being a bit of a luddite, I feel pistols should be examples of precision mechanical engineering and I can't quite get on with using electonics. Pure prejudice I know. So back to Steyr and some comments and initial impressions.

The single shot LP10 & the 5 shot LP50 are, not surprisingly, very similar in many respects. Same range of grips, same adjustability, same sights, etc. The LP50 is slightly heavier by about 90gm but that extra weight - presumably associated with the magazine mechanism - is not really noticeable in any absolute sense and doesn't feel like it has altered the balance of the pistol significantly. (OK, my hands and arms were supplied by JCB, other more sensibly proportioned shooters may have the finesse to be able to appreciate the difference !)

The LP10 has a very smooth breech loading mechanism with a left hand side lever. This could be comfortably operated with my left hand without altering my right hand grip. The pellet has to be inserted into the barrel which is slightly fiddly rather than dropped into a tray/channel and having it pushed into the barrel by closing the breech.

The LP50 has a 5 shot magazine ( single shot and blank mags for rapid test firing are extras at around £30 a pop!). The magazine cannot be inserted or ejected unless the pistol is cocked. This is done by grasping a pair of latches, one on either side (just above the trigger on the main body) and sliding the pair back using finger and thumb on left hand. More pressure than you might think is required to do this but the actual movement is no more than a 1mm. This action is no where near as "natural" as the LP10 or other single shot pistols but is not a big deal if you can count - after each shot the mechanism is automatically cocked, so after 5 shots the mag is empty but the mech is cocked - eject the mag, refill it, slot it back in and away you go without having to re-cock it. If you pull the trigger a 6th time, there is a dry fire click (no air is used) and the pistol will need to be cocked again before the mag can be ejected. The mag is inserted from the left against a light spring and clicks home very positively. Following each shot, it clicks back out to the left to present the next pellet in the breech. I thought this "click through" might produce a slight twitch but I couldn't really detect anything. On completion the mag naturally ejects into your left hand when you press the release switch. Neat.

Using the single shot mag, which is a requirement for standard 10m precision shooting, is more of a bother on a per shot basis. Again, you should only need to cock the pistol once during the entire session but ejecting the mag, loading a pellet, then re-inserting the mag is always going to be a bit more effort than using a conventional single shot mechanism. I find I have to put the pistol down as I need two hands to load the magazine; maybe with practice I can do it all one-handed. Due to asymmetric channel/machining, the mag can only be inserted the correct way round but it is quite easy in the heat of the moment to load the pellet into mag from the wrong side...

However while the LP50 might be slightly compromised as a single shot pistol, it is superb in 5 shot mode. It is fast, slick and oh so easy to get through loads of pellets and air. Compared to the old gas-ram FWB that I've used before, there is almost no kick at all and it has instantly reduced the semi-random scatter that used to be so evident in my shooting. I haven't tried playing with the trigger which appears to have more adjustment options than I've had hot dinners... First I'll get used to the pistol, then set it correctly for 500gm and only then will I try meddling. Certainly out of the box, the trigger feels light and clean. Similarly I won't play yet with small additional weights that can be slotted down either side of the barrel housing. The only thing I may change in the near future is the grip. Currently its a "large" but I may exchange that for "XL"...

In summary, for actual single shot competition, I would speculate that the LP10 is a fraction better than the LP50 as it is slightly less bother to operate but that is all and that may diminish with familiarity. Clearly for any form of rapid fire/multi-shot competition, the LP50 is the only option. To me, the LP50 is better for practice as you can take advantage of the 5 shot mag to remain focused on shooting for longer. For any sort of beer can battering, inappropriate as it may be, the LP50 is hugely impressive. You pays your money and takes your choice. Certainly no regrets so far.

If anyone is interested, I'll post some more comments when I've had the chance to use the pistol a bit more.

congrats,a fine choice.on the two handed loading point-as the magazine ejects,leave it there.then place a pellet in the magazine and push home.
you will soon be able to do it blindfolded.
keep practising and enjoy. set your trigger slightly over 500grms to allow for differences in heat/humidity at various times.avoids embarressment at competition scruttineering.