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si72
19-05-2004, 01:15 PM
this is surely a contradiction in terms. in any case can anyone honestly say hand on heart that they 100% get this result?
how can it be guaranteed no mater how good a shot u r ? the fact is it cannot. a kill is a kill there is nothing humane about it if you are going to get all gooey about it take up golf.

Davestate
19-05-2004, 01:27 PM
No one's getting "gooey about it". It's known as having respect for your sport.;)

Gary C
19-05-2004, 01:30 PM
Couch it in whatever terms you like. It's about killing an animal with the minimum of suffering.

If this means nothing to you then your are in the wrong sport and on the wrong BBS.

si72
19-05-2004, 01:32 PM
that is not a denial. respect in what sense? respect for the rodents?

si72
19-05-2004, 01:40 PM
gary
when your livley hood is threatened and the ecology of your high country is eroded by a non indigenous species who do nothing but breed eat breed eat then it is nothing to do with respect or sport it is a matter of conservation and preservation.

EddieP
19-05-2004, 01:43 PM
Maybe. But that doesn't preclude taking a pride in doing the job properly.

si72
19-05-2004, 01:51 PM
eddie
i shoot to kill . when you shoot at an animal thats what you are doing. my origional point has been lost prob because of the golf jibe but i think the origional statement is valid.and the responses have skirted the issue. it is not i that are "couch things" in other terms",the term humane kill is doing just that.

Pat...
19-05-2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by si72
gary
when your livley hood is threatened and the ecology of your high country is eroded by a non indigenous species who do nothing but breed eat breed eat then it is nothing to do with respect or sport it is a matter of conservation and preservation.

You are a bit of a bore.

I'm glad we sent you rabbits....



:D :D

si72
19-05-2004, 01:55 PM
pat
thats the only response i will give to something that fell out of a cows ****.
regards
si

Pat...
19-05-2004, 01:57 PM
:D :D :D

Pat...
19-05-2004, 01:58 PM
Anyway why are you up at this time?

:confused:

si72
19-05-2004, 02:00 PM
wife is in hospital expecting our 1st born. im waiting for phone to ring cant sleep im a bit excited.

Pat...
19-05-2004, 02:07 PM
its not just the rabbits that are breeding then?

;)

si72
19-05-2004, 02:11 PM
correct slipped one past the goalie as they say. got the pat pat pat of tiny feet in ur house cob?

RemMag
19-05-2004, 02:12 PM
'Humane Kill' would imply killing as humanely as practically possible. This would distinguish it from a 'sadistic kill' for example. I think that the point is that you can kill something in such a way as to minimise its pain (as far as is practical), and this would be decribed as humane, (with humanity) to kill something in a way in which you ensured it suffered the most pain before it died (to take the opposite extreme) would be a 'sadistic kill'.

Despite what some people may think, possibly yourself amongst them, we do not generally hunt because we enjoy the act of killing per se, if that was our goal then it would be far more economical to buy rabbits and hamsters from pet shops and torture them to death, than to hunt animals in the wild.

Obviously we do not all achieve the most humane kill possible with every shot, but most of us always do everything we reasonably can to ensure that we are as humane as possible.

Hope that clears things up for you a little.

Alex

EddieP
19-05-2004, 02:16 PM
Exactly. We all hunt to kill. But we want to do it as effectively, efficiently and humanely as possible. In the real world it may not always happen that way. But that's our intention. Isn't it yours too?

si72
19-05-2004, 02:19 PM
so you gain no pleasure in killing then why do it? and b4 you come out with all that being out at 1 with nature line why dont u just go for a walk? why not as a friend of mine does with deer and thar take a camera and take pictures?

Davestate
19-05-2004, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by EddieP
Exactly. We all hunt to kill. But we want to do it as effectively, efficiently and humanely as possible. In the real world it may not always happen that way. But that's our intention. Isn't it yours too? Err no not really, if it was, he'd buy a decent rifle and get his kill zone down from "1.5" at 25-30mtrs".

si72
19-05-2004, 02:26 PM
eddie of course you are correct.
the head is a smaller target if you miss an opportunity has been missed. many people here in nz would say the only good rabbit is a dead rabbit. I am not a sadist i am a reallist we need to get rid of them its as simple as that. anyway would you not say that galloping around on horse back following a pack of baying hounds running a fox into the ground is a humane way of limiting their numbers or an archaic sadistic ritual that belongs in the history books under the barbaric section?

TX Sniper
19-05-2004, 02:28 PM
im confused does this si72 guy hunt or not, is he ante, what is his point and what the hell is he talking about. :confused: Congrats on the baba si72 guy by the way:) This thread about humane kills has been coverd like a gazillion times, people have different veiws and it normallyt ends up getting unessacerly heated.

(wait till the big guns get goin :D )

If you fancy a more philosophy based chat though me and waterboy are quite good:cool:

TX Sniper
19-05-2004, 02:30 PM
archaic sadistic ritual that belongs in the history books under the barbaric section?

Stop with the long words already, im hungoveer its making my head hurt :( :D

si72
19-05-2004, 02:31 PM
i did buy another rifle. did u spend all that money on rifles and still have change for the full frontal? and buy the way i dont think ive ever seen a rabbit that was less than 1.5" across.

steven
19-05-2004, 02:34 PM
It is quite common for folks using the BBS to associate themselves with the verb 'Hunt'

It is somewhat less common for someone to associate themself with a Noun of similar spelling !

si72
19-05-2004, 02:38 PM
i am pro getting rid of rabbits posssums etc they dont belong here. i knew this would get things going thats why i started it.
im yanking chains. but i stand by what i say. and fox hunting blowing a trumpet is you must agree sadistic etc etc you have a hangover so wont get carried away.
thanks for your congrats.
si

RemMag
19-05-2004, 02:39 PM
so you gain no pleasure in killing then why do it? and b4 you come out with all that being out at 1 with nature line why dont u just go for a walk? why not as a friend of mine does with deer and thar take a camera and take pictures?

I gain pleasure in hunting, in being able to seek out, sneak up on, and kill my prey, and then eat it with a beer or three. I have a strong urge to hunt, and would, for example, very much like to hunt in Africa. (When I win the lottery!) But I don't enjoy killing for itself, is that so very hard to understand? If you gave me a rabbit in a cage I wouldn't gain any particular pleasure from killing it, (not that it would bother me much either) but if I had hunted it in the wild, I would have enjoyed the entirety of the hunt.

I guess it is all about respect for your quarry and for the world around you, I believe I have a right to hunt and kill for pleasure but I do not believe that I have a right to cause deliberate and callous suffering for my own pleasure. Thus I try and hunt and kill in a manner which does not cause gratuitous suffering to whatever it is that I hunt.

That might sound like a cliche, but if it is it is probably because lots of other people have said the same thing, and that does not neccesarily diminsh the value of my point does it?

Alex

Davestate
19-05-2004, 02:39 PM
Steven, exactly m8, hit the nail bang on the head there.:D :D

RemMag
19-05-2004, 02:42 PM
Well if a rabbit is over 1.5" across, and you then shoot one in the ****, does it bother you?

si72
19-05-2004, 02:43 PM
what is your problem perhaps you could be more specific? I could respond to being called a c#@t on a more base level but i will leave that to those who belong in the gutter. do you hunt foxs on horse back is that whats getting to you?

TX Sniper
19-05-2004, 02:45 PM
fair enough, it does lead to some interesting debates when something controversial is said. As far as fox hunting goes, i satnd on the fence, as a keen lamper i can't see it as a realistic way of controlling numbers, then again i am some what of a tradinalist and enjoys country sports and the social side of it. As far as the suffering and things go, as i have said before on a moral ground and ethical ground seeing animals suffer does not upset me personally. That is not to say that i agree with it or think that anything other than a humane kill should be the aim at all times, but if people do not agree then i will not try to enforce my veiws on them. The main reason i support hunting in this country is because if that gets banned then who knows what next.

EddieP
19-05-2004, 02:46 PM
I choose not to be a vegetarian, because if we weren't supposed to eat animals then why are they made of meat? But I've also seen what goes on in slaughter houses and I'd rather be the rabbit (the humanely shot one) than the pig any day. That's one of my reasons for doing it, not a pleasure in killing for killing's sake, but a belief in the idea that if you want a job doing properly, etc.

Other people have different views and reasons, but I believe we should all have respect for our quarry and aim to kill either humanely or not at all, so if I'm not confident in a shot I won't take it. But you're right, nothing is ever 100% guaranteed, but I'm talking about intent, and on that score we surely have a duty?

RemMag
19-05-2004, 02:48 PM
With regards Fox Hunting, it is fairly humane and natural as these things go.

But how can you champion using cheap guns to shoot your pray in the ass and then criticise us for Fox Hunting?? :confused:


did u spend all that money on rifles and still have change for the full frontal?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

TX Sniper
19-05-2004, 02:49 PM
sorry again lads but i feel i must appologise for my grammer and spelling, trust me i am never drinking jamesons to that extent again

Agree with your cliche point alex, nicely put

si72
19-05-2004, 02:50 PM
i do not aim for the a#rs# . your previous point well made. unfortunatley some people seem unable to expess themselves properly. but point in case you shoot at a rabbit it moves you hit it in the ar#se . what do you do? well i dont stand there fealing sorry for it i find it and finish it off as quickly as possible.

draftsmann
19-05-2004, 02:54 PM
Interesting thread. Most blokes waiting for their missus to drop a sprog pace the corridor with a fag hanging out of each corner of their mouth instead of trolling internet forums.....

Adrian

si72
19-05-2004, 02:57 PM
fair enough i think we have reached a level of understanding and mutual respect. perhaps this is not a simple issue . my origional point was that killing is killing it is a simple premise. my intention was to draw people into thought and debate on the subject. and newzealand is not england and vice versa things are different here our island is a rural community our economy is based on the countryside and therefore we must view things from a different standpoint.

steven
19-05-2004, 02:59 PM
Not sure the missus would have ever conceived if the best i could manage to shoot was 1.5" groups :D

si72
19-05-2004, 03:01 PM
wife is asleep. will be induced tommorow if bab does not come b4 then. i have spent so much time in hospital waiting that i think they were gong to have me charged with vagrancy. wife is a nurse sensible type told me no panic go home i will ring u if it comes. going back there at 8am.

RemMag
19-05-2004, 03:05 PM
well i dont stand there fealing sorry for it i find it and finish it off as quickly as possible.

Well that would be how I would expect someone who is a 'humane hunter' to behave, and how most of us would (I hope) behave.

You seem to have argued yourself round on yourself, I'm confused?

Or are you saying that you would happily shoot something in the back first time, and then dispatch it with a second shot? As a delibrate plan?

As far as I can see, this came from the point on another thread that 1.5" is a low level of accuracy for humane hunting, I can shoot down to about 0.5" at 35 yards with my HW95K (not bad for a springer,eh?). Which makes it less likely that I will shoot the rabbit in the **** than someone who is using a rifle that shoots to 1.5".

si72
19-05-2004, 03:10 PM
you have just lost the argument mate.
fox hunting is fairly humane?
come on you yak on about taking pride this humane that then come out with that line frankly im disapointed i thought more of you. as i said b4 i do not aim for the a#rse and i do not own a cheap gun. and steven thats because your d##k is less that 1.5" mate pity its not as big as the one on your head eh?

steven
19-05-2004, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by si72
[B] I could respond to being called a c#@t on a more base level but i will leave that to those who belong in the gutter./B]

Oh well Si,

Back to the gutter for you then !

si72
19-05-2004, 03:24 PM
alex
I would if presented with the **** of a rabbit either try to get it stand up or wait a while for it to move or move to a better spot i dont want to spend half the night chasing wounded rabbits.
steven
looks like were both in the gutter pass me the special brew will you cob ?
everyone else who posted
i have enjoyed the chat thanks v much
check u l8tr
si

TX Sniper
19-05-2004, 03:45 PM
i dunno what i would do with out the bbs. its amazing how such clever decent lads can present such thoughtful arguments but in the next post resort to chhildish jibes, funny but childish, the 1.5" ones, are they needed? I like a good laugh and its great that everyone has a sense of humour but when there intended hurtfully its not the greaest way of expressing one's self. This applys to you all and myself. si there aint no need for the d1ck jokes and as a new member it would be wise if not courtious to be more polite to us ancient seniors, and as the seniors we should set a better example. Now i am only 17 and i can clearly see this so come on lads dont make one of the youngest fell like the oldest:D

shootist
19-05-2004, 03:47 PM
Good grief! How did I miss this load of bo11ocks for so long?

Humane kills. si72 (I am not a number, I am a free man!) seems to object to the possibility as a concept. Well, some rabbits I shot the other night with a .223 were killed very humanely indeed. Untidily, I'll agree, but VERY humane, so the concept exists.

Fox hunting sadisitic? Well, I don't on a personal basis, much care for fox hunting, but I'll admit that it's more of a class / social thing. But, if a fox is caught, then it's dead. No argument. Quick, and often messy, but at the point of death, relatively humane. Uninformed people often confuse messy with inhumane. (Compare the quick death of the guillotine with the more 'humane' American gas chamber).

The same cannot always be said of shooting. While I consider shooting to be humane, there are always shots that wound from time to time. You ALWAYS go and find those rabbits you wounded? Assuming NZ rabbits live in holes, I don't believe you. I know nobody who will dig out half a warren and / or hack down 20 square feet of bramble to despatch a wounded rabbit.

adam_thrower
19-05-2004, 03:53 PM
:D Another Semi-Constructive thread then:D I'm keeping quiet, last thread in this Vein that i commented on got pulled:p
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You ain't seen me, Roight?! ;)

RemMag
19-05-2004, 04:03 PM
Well fox hunting is fairly humane, IMHO. I regard it as more humane than wounding game with a rifle or shotgun. I have never heard of a fox being wounded by a pack of hounds, and not killed.

It is also a damn sight more humane than having a load of poor hunters and amateur 'pest controllers' blatting away at foxes with unsuitable weapons, and wounding them.

Anyway, I don't understand what argument I have lost, you said you didn't understand the concept of 'humane hunting' so I have tried to explain it! There is a sliding scale from 'vegan' to 'sadist' and I just happen to put fox hunting above hunters who wound their quarry.

Alex

Andrew006
19-05-2004, 04:50 PM
This thread could be extremely entertaining if people did not jump down others throats. (I'm not sticking up for the troll from down under either) But everybody is entitled to an opinion on most matters concerning fieldsports. This might upset some on here, but being anti-hunt does not mean being an anti. (I am not a hunt protestor)

Alex, I have to disagree with your humane fox killing. A fox hunt is not humane, the fox is literally run until its heart and lungs can stand no more. Its fear is clearly seen in the eyes before being ripped apart by the hounds. (I have seen this, close up, my father-in-law owns a farm, where a hunt quite often goes through.)

Lets not confuse vermin control and landed gentry fun.

I am a countryside person, I love the countryside, I love my hunting and I respect the countryside way of life (except for the Fox hunt), but no matter what anybody says, I cannot condone fox hunting and nobody will convince me either.

Some will say that once you get fox hunting banned, other fieldsports will be next, thats nonsence in my book. There is a huge difference between the two.

Just my opinion anyways, thanks for reading.:)

Andy

treesurgeon
19-05-2004, 06:36 PM
The devils advocate, i like your style. Its refreshing to hear different views, especially when they are not wrapped in sometimes laughable self righteous tripe. We sometimes sound like such moral crusaders. If we felt such genuine compassion for rabbits, would we shoot them ? I do completely agree with dispatching quarry cleanly but just sometimes think we loose site of what we really are, hunters. We enjoy what we do, whether it be for genuine pest control, food , or sport . Its fun & fun isn't wrong.

si72
19-05-2004, 08:42 PM
I just wanted to get a debate going not start upsetting people. if you get upset you cannot defend your position. I do not care what people call me and the stuff to pat steve etc was just banter they give it to me i give it back. i think all sides were argued well and on an issue like this people are bound to get heated. but let me be clear on the following:
1) i am pro shooting
2)i do not feal sorry for rabbits etc
3)i kill them as effectivly as i can
4)i have shot many
5)i am not a bad shooter
6)i take the p##s sometimes.
finaly i dont see how lumping shooting in with fox hunting by defending it is going to help your cause in the uk. people find it an abhorent practice and it will be shooting next if you do not distance yourselves from it.

Iconsider this matter closed
thankyou all
si

Steyr
19-05-2004, 09:26 PM
I believe in the principle of humane kills.

It is the desire to fulfill mans instinct to hunt (as we can also be hunted by other predators in the world) but the defining point is the desire to despatch the quarry in such a way so that it is not aware of its departure ie a complete one shot lights out deal.

That is the theory and like many things in life, theory and reality do not often meet in a seamless fashion.

If I aim at quarry and pull the trigger, my intention is humane despatch. Life aint like that and you may have to take a 2nd or even a third shot. I hate it but that is life pure and simple. This is not always down to poor marksmanship either IMHO.

The vital areas can be very small targets - look at some humane accidents and wonder how they survived whith the injuries they sustained ! Conversley - you may get stung by a wasp and die - how perverse is that.

This is a personal view but I am not a fan of hunting with horse and hound.

What Alex said about few foxes being caught and being left wounded may well be true but it departs from the humanity equation because the quarry is chased and run down until it either escapes or is caught and despatched by the dogs.

I do not classify this as a stress free departure from this world.

I do not support fox hunting for many reasons but if you apply the term pest control to this, then I think there are more efficient ways of covering the number of foxes caught by horse and hounds alone.

If you pick up a rifle to hunt, your ultimate aim (pardon the pun) is to deal a speedy blow to the quarry so that it does not (quite literally) know what hit it.

However, before you squeeze the trigger you must accept that no matter HOW CAREFUL you are, there will be occasions when you will fail. If you cant deal with that issue, then dont pick up the rifle in the first place.

That seems simple enough to me.

I accept that responsibilty and am answerable when I cock it up. I am answerable to ME........

Steyr

May your aim be true and your back up shot swift

rudy
19-05-2004, 09:50 PM
my 2 cents

I know where I'm going on holiday:D
10 days of pure hunting bliss more rabbits than crabs on a hookers ####
I wonder who else would want to come, we should all go and help them out, that would sort them out.
do you know some place where we can stay :D

Davestate
19-05-2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by si72
this is surely a contradiction in terms. in any case can anyone honestly say hand on heart that they 100% get this result?
how can it be guaranteed no mater how good a shot u r ? the fact is it cannot. a kill is a kill there is nothing humane about.
Going back to the original post (minus the golf bit;)), If you, Si72 in this case, are intending to hunt with a kill zine of 1.5" at 25-30mtrs, then, IMHO, you aren't hunting at all. I would class this sort of shooting that should be done to tin rabbits only, it isn't humane to hunt with this range of accuracy to begin with. Just my view on things.
BTW, how's the missus Si?

RemMag
20-05-2004, 08:55 AM
To those of you who disagree with me on the Foxhunting, fair enough.

I have to say that I do not participate in it myself, and feel no particular desire to, it doesn't bother me that other people do it though. (How did I get dragged into the fox hunting debate, again )

With regards to shooting:

1)Sorry if I sounded self righteous, I was just trying to explain that 'Humane Hunting' is not, IMHO a contradiction in terms at all. It makes sense to me, and it seems to make sense to most of us.

2)I do not cry when I kill rabbits, or anything else for that matter. I don't find it distasteful to kill, but by the same token the act of killing itself does not excite me all that much, if it did I would just by gerbils and drown them in the sink, 'cos it would be a hell of a lot cheaper. Surely that is a fairly clear distinction??

3) What the hell are we 'arguing' or 'debating' about??? :confused: Si's original post seemed to be saying that when we say we try to be 'humane' we are talking rubbish and should take up golf. (But are golfing trousers really humane either?) But by his own admission he follows up wounded quarry, and endeavours to kill it as efficently as possible, which is as good a definition of humane hunting as I have ever heard.

4) We can all agree that 'Humane' is perhaps a relative value. For example, I understand it is regarded as reasonably acceptable (in those kind of circles) for Elephants to be shot in the heart and lungs to drop them and then to be despatch with a head shot shortly afterwards. I would regard that as an acceptable practice, because I appreciate the technological and physical problems concerned with shooting something that large with a rifle means that it is technologically difficult to guarantee a one shot kill. (I suppose you could always use a Milan though!) That said, many elephants do fall to one shot kills aswell. However, when it comes to rabbits, the technology to kill them with one shot (most of the time) is readily available and damn near perfect.

5)I guess that we all need to come to our own decisions about what we regard as humane.

All the best.

Alex

max headroom
20-05-2004, 09:54 AM
is humane kill the same as quick despatch.
if i cant get a head shot in i look for one in the chest cavity.
mr. and mrs. bunnie wont always stand in the way you want.
if they decide not to present themselves for a quick despatch, let them go.
congrats on the nipper by the way si.
i do seem to remember though it`s legal to make your own grog in nz, this couldn`t be another factor in the discusion?.:rolleyes: :D :D