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EV2
26-05-2004, 06:01 PM
A general question to all

When selling a rifle if it is shooting consistantly over the 12ft lbs limit and by consistanlly i mean every other shot should this have been disclosed to a potential buyer.

Also if a rifle was sold and found to be immediately faulty to the point of needing a new regulator and postage etc who should take responsibility for this the buyer, seller or fairly split between the two.

R30Jeff
26-05-2004, 06:06 PM
When selling a rifle if it is shooting consistantly over the 12ft lbs limit and by consistanlly i mean every other shot should this have been disclosed to a potential buyer.

If they knew, then yes. Alot might not know, either because of not having a chrono or because erm can't think of any other.




Also if a rifle was sold and found to be immediately faulty to the point of needing a new regulator and postage etc who should take responsibility for this the buyer, seller or fairly split between the two.

Again, if they were aware. Remeber there are a lot of people who just shoot now and then and don't have much technical know how.

Just playing devils advecate (sp) what ever happened to "buyer beware". If you can be sorted amicably (sp) then give it a go.

EV2
26-05-2004, 06:19 PM
Hi Mate

Am not sure on both counts wether they knew or not but have suggested we split the 150.00 bill between us but they are not interested there response was that it was fine before i brought it.

In an email since the transaction they stated they had never chronoed the rifle although did think it was shooting very fast.

Steyr
26-05-2004, 08:39 PM
The basic principle is buyer beware but as there is a legal requirement to maintain the rifle within the legal limit, then it seems unreasonable that the original vendor did not A, check the rifles energy level to ensure it was legal during the period of his/her ownership and B. did not take this action prior to selling it.

Purely by chance, I tested my S200 last night over a 55 shot string. When I last set her up, it was peaking at approx. 11,5 lbs energy. When I checked it last night it had dropped 1 ft pound !!

As a result, it has been tweaked and is back to 11,5. IK will testing it the next time I shoot as they have a habit of settling down over a few days.

Access to a chrono is not that difficult even if it means taking it to a shop or joining a club. Combro produce small portable and very cheap and accurate chrono's though I hear they are rarer than rocking horse droppings at the moment ?

You say that it is exceeding the legal limit every other shot but you dont say what the average is. If it is running at 11.99 ftlbs then it is clearly too close for any reasonable allowance due to pellet weight fit temperature etc...

However, you mention that the reg has to be replaced. Difficult one to answer as the previous owner didnt seem to be too aware as to what his equipment was doing.

Morally, I would offer to meet you half way but then again I wouldnt have been ignorant of my rifles performance in the first place.

You may have some leverage as he sold you a rifle that was exceeding the legal limit and therefore may have breached the law IRO firearms legislation and possibly IRO consumer legislation.

Suggest you contact your insurer as they often have a legal advice line as part of their standard policy cover, and most brokers offer legal protection so you will get advice and they will issue proceedings in your name should the case warrant it.

You could also make the sale conditional on the rifle being legal and in the condition it was described. Ask if it has been serviced - this may give you an insight as to the attitude of the owner etc...

Steyr

shootist
26-05-2004, 10:24 PM
Was it a trader or a private sale? Trader can include an individual who buys and sells.

Slim
27-05-2004, 12:41 AM
IF A PRIVATE SALE.
If this person has no morals you are in reality screwed.
If he mis-described the item you are entitled to your money back,but the only way to enforce this (legally;) ) would be through the small claims court.
Personally I wouldn't bother asking "Plod" to come round and collect your "Firearm",how can you prove you didn't modify it?
Make sure of your facts and then "Name & Shame"is in my opinion your only real recourse.
Obviously other people with a more "Vigilante" approach will advise a different course.
As so well expressed by the previous poster,it is late,and I could be talking Bo////ks.
But I'd bet a to pinch of Japanese S//t that Trading standards won't want to know.

RochdaleLad
27-05-2004, 01:05 AM
edit: nm.

draftsmann
27-05-2004, 04:54 AM
Simjim is correct. The Sale of Goods Act only covers sales made in the course of a business.

Adrian

Taff Williams
27-05-2004, 05:49 AM
Access to a chrono is a real bugbear for me, no gunshops (that I know of) in Powys, and as has been said - "rarer than rocking horse droppings".
I've been following the C625 saga and will buy one as soon as they become available, but untill that time I'm stuffed for chrono-ing my own gun, not that it has been tweaked as it was bought new - but I'm just not 100% as to what its poking out.

Ogri the trog

aquarius11
27-05-2004, 08:30 AM
Thanks EV2 i was wondering wether to air views on here or not and i hope its not taken to be airing dirty washing.

The rifle EV2 is refering to was my Ripley AR5s which i bought from Kieth alias "Monty" of Team Ripley off another AirgunBBS by the name of "airmonsta", i bought it in good faith from him who informed me it was set at 11.5ftlbs and to use daystate pellets, as the rifle needed so much work on the stock and a bolt to secure it toghether i didnt shoot it exept towards the end of the refinishing and then only inside, late at night at my work, it was infact giving me sub half inch groups at 45yds lying prone, i had no reason to suspect that it was shooting over the limit so i did not get it cronographed, i also informed EV2 that it seemed to shoot fast compared to my AA410 but thats been crono'd at 10.5 ftlbs at two HFT shoots so i asumed that was why and the fact the the riper is a quality piece of kit so it must shoot beter than that.
EV2 was given every chance when he and his friend shot and tried the rifle out at my club (his friend has the same model of rifle) both were impresed with and EV2 bought it, telling me he would now have to sell his to fund this purchase.
I textd him after the weekend to see if he enjoyed shooting it and he replied that he hadnt had much time to shoot it but would be doing so later that week, i had an email from him on how to adjust the power setings on the rifle and recomended him to Ripley.
Now he tells me that it needs all this work on it.
The rifle was to the best of my knowledge legal and in perfect working order when sold to EV2.
I have no idea if EV2 has played with the regulator or not, i know that as it was shoting so well for me, i left well alone, i can strip a springer easily but pnumatics i leave to the profesionals.
I do not have spare funds to give away as i had to sell it to fund family crisis and would still own it otherwise.
I have all the comunications from EV2 saved so if any one is realy interested they can have copies and draw their own conclusions.
I am not a trader just a skint individual trying to make ends meet like every one else.
aquarius11

Davestate
27-05-2004, 08:40 AM
Sounds to me like it needs a simple adjustment not 150 worth of work. Just how inconsistent is it?

Andyman
27-05-2004, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Taff Williams
Access to a chrono is a real bugbear for me, no gunshops (that I know of) in Powys, and as has been said - "rarer than rocking horse droppings".
I've been following the C625 saga and will buy one as soon as they become available, but untill that time I'm stuffed for chrono-ing my own gun, not that it has been tweaked as it was bought new - but I'm just not 100% as to what its poking out.

Ogri the trog

Use the no chrono option in chairgun, that will give you an idea of the power your gun is doing.

Taff Williams
27-05-2004, 09:14 AM
Andyman,
Cheers, I'll give it a go, but how accurate will it be if my pellet drop measurements are even a few millimeters out?
I've tried comparing pellet drops to the trajectory in Chairgun and it seems to fit the 11.5 figure but until I get a chrono, the element of doubt persists.

Thanks anyway

Ogri the trog

aquarius11
27-05-2004, 10:21 AM
EV2 said that the power adjuster makes no difference nor a chang of pellets make a difference it still gives a reading of, 775,805,775,805,775,805 etc, etc.
aquarius11

Davestate
27-05-2004, 10:52 AM
Not just a simple adjustment then, send it back to Ripley and foot half the bill if EV2 is prepared to do so. I think he is entitled to a full refund if the matter can't be settled amicably.

aquarius11
27-05-2004, 12:08 PM
any one else care to comment?
aquarius11

DJP
27-05-2004, 01:30 PM
Difficult one this.

My take is that if you bought something by post and it was defective, or not as described, then you'd have legitimate grounds for a moan.

However, this time the buyer has actually tried the rifle out before buying it - and so has had the opportunity to satisfy himself re it's condition.

The problem described is one that no one could have known about without chrono'ing the rifle anyway.

That's the chance you take when you buy anything secondhand - that's why secondhand goods are cheaper. Really in this case the buyer is asking the seller to guarantee the goods - but if you want guarantees you have to buy new and pay the full price.

I don't know the full ins and outs of it but from the above I'd say it's really the buyers problem - he obviously thought it was OK when he tried it out.

But I stand to be corrected! :D

Darren Petts
27-05-2004, 01:39 PM
If buying a gun face to face, take your own chrono and put a string into the sellers lawn or at his local club.

EV2
27-05-2004, 01:55 PM
Aquarius 11

I am fully aware that i shot the gun before hand however what you failed to say was that

the only option to test it was in a church hall over 10 meters and no option to chrono it as your club was having there weekly evening shoot.

I am not suggesting that you were aware that there was a problem however as soon as i had put it across a chrono i made you aware. It was only at this point that you told me you thought it was shooting fast compared to your s410 that you had had chronoed a day or so before.

Having spoken to Ripley they immediately stated what they felt the problem was and the cost involed to put it right including postage ie 150.00 and could not fit it in until 21st June.

I proposed to you that we split this cost as it seemed a fair way of doing things but you were not interested.

You state that you are just a skint individual trying to make ends meet, so am i but was prepared to meet half way.

I also have copies of your emails

When i purchased the rifle from you i did so in good faith believing you to be genuine.

Obviously if you are not prepared to share the cost i will have to fund it myself when i can or have a rifle that i cannot shoot.

In posting my original post i was seeking comments and was not going to name you as i did not wish to get into this tit and tat online.

Jeff

Gary C
27-05-2004, 02:26 PM
IMHO
Legally this is law of tort not sale of goods act. If it could be proven that the seller had sold an over the limit gun then the contract is frustrated and the buyer is fully entitled to his money back.

The difficulty is in proving that the gun was over the limit on the day of sale and it wasn't sheer misfortune that it went belly up shortly afterwards.

Personally speaking I'd be paying the cost or taking the gun back if I'd sold it. Common sense dictates that it as defective at point of sale and the seller has a moral responsibility to his fellow shooters to do the decent thing.

Whilst this may not be financially sensible to pursue through the courts it is a damning indictment on the seller if he washes his hands of the issue. I personally feel the buyer is being MORE than reasonable offering to pay half when he's bought a dodgy gun.

Funny thing is I've met Aquarius and he doesn't seem the sort.

Slim
27-05-2004, 02:53 PM
As the buyer inspected the goods and found them satisfactory,
it is surely his problem,If the seller didn't know about the defect he was not dis-honest,the gun was "sold as seen".
I wouldn't predict a happy ending getting the Police involved,I'm no expert but this is now a Firearm in their eyes,and presumably you are not a F.A.C. holder...
Just my $.02.

Philip W
27-05-2004, 03:42 PM
Although pretty new to air guns I do not think this situation is any different to buying a second hand car .As long as the seller does not lie about the product then it is very much "buyer beware " .If you want a guarantee pay the price from a dealer.Just my opinion mind. :confused: :confused:

Davestate
27-05-2004, 04:14 PM
But if you bought that car with a fake MOT cert, makes the car illegal, as is this rifle, regardless of pleading 'I don't have a chrono'. Best to settle this as quickly & amicably as possible just to prove what a good chap the seller is.;)

Slim
27-05-2004, 08:43 PM
Seems a bit strong to bring "Faking" into it,as stated if guarantees are wanted,buy from a dealer.
There is no proof the gun wasn't "fiddled" with,and as for the club not having a chrono' are sellers obliged to supply test equipment as well:rolleyes:
Just my $.02 worth (again:o )

Davestate
27-05-2004, 08:49 PM
I was stressing the point 'illegal'.;)

Slim
27-05-2004, 09:18 PM
Fair comment mate:)
Maybe selling used motors has made me a bit cynical.:D

shootist
27-05-2004, 09:29 PM
This thread demonstrates one thing in any event. Don't look for legal advice on an airgun bulletin board!

The one over riding thing about going to law is proof. It's about proof. Also, can you prove it?

From what has been said so far, neither party can prove (That's PROVE) anything in respect of the rifles condition at the time of sale, or indeed, the terms of the sale.

This is one of the reasons behind the 'caveat emptor' rule. Let the buyer beware. It is indeed the reason why secondhand goods are usually cheap.

The only real prospect of resolution (it must be past my bed time, you wouldn't believe how many times I just had to type that last word to get it right!!!!) Is negotiation.

Work it out.

Ask Baz, or Sid :eek: , to mediate.

Jon Budd
27-05-2004, 09:36 PM
50:50 sounds fair....

unihazard
27-05-2004, 09:44 PM
Hi aquarius and EV2


I have seen the gun in question and its a lovely gun and stock sorry to see any ill feeling over it . I have seen it at our club where it was run over chrono and can confirm Jeffs position in that it consistantly shot in a cycle of one shot high and one shot low, the high shot always over the 800 fps level and therefore over the legal limit. In addition I am cofident that jeff has not interferred with the gun since purchase . Of course without a chrono there is no way of spotting this when buying . Other club members took an interest in this unusual pattern of shot and Jeff contacted Ripley who recognised the problem as being that of the regulator . I suspect that nobdy has set out to con anyone here , not until seen over chrono does the problem become clearly apparent but even if in ignorance , the gun does not meet its description as sold fully and therefore jeffs offer of splitting the cost of repair in half seems fair to me . Hope all can be resolved amicably and we can carry on enjoying shooting .

Slim
27-05-2004, 10:05 PM
why not have a poll?:D :D :D

Baldie
27-05-2004, 10:38 PM
2p's worth.

When I was young (last year) I bought a Rapid off a BBS member who demonstrated using a chrono that it was under 12 ft/lbs. I found out the next day when I read the user instructions that he'd put the wrong pellet weight in, and when that was changed, the rifle 'allegedly' ran 'warm'.

Fortunately for me, it wasn't an expensive adjustment and it got done within 3 hours of me knowing the real power of the rifle.:) [Thanks Ben.]

The chap I bought the rifle off had already said his goodbyes to the BBS, and had left airgunning already. I could afford the 15 repair anyway. No point in taking the issue further.

I'd like to ask aquarius11 what he would have done if he had chrono'd the rifle before the sale? If nothing then, I'd recommend doing nothing now (and take the flak for selling a faulty rifle).

If you would have had it repaired, (as everyone here would expect) then someone offering to go half's on the cost, is actually saving you some money, so why wouldn't you take up the offer of the 50% contribution?

I was told by a fellow BBS member today that I seem to be seen on the BBS as a bit of a goody-two-shoes during a F-2-F I had with him. So maybe I opt for the 'ideal' solution......

Which is.....

If I had sold a rifle that was subsequently found to be (allegedly) running warm, I would want to buy it back for my peace of mind and my reputation. It seems the fault is nothing to do with anyone 'adjusting in' the error.

If I then had the offer of someone who was willing to go half's on the cost of repair, I'd be very very happy. Not least because I might not get another buyer, second time around.

:) :)

Sid
27-05-2004, 10:47 PM
Who gives a flying f*** anyway. This thread is so complicated that I can't work out exactly who is complaining about what. Stop whining for gods sake, whoever you are :D

Slim
27-05-2004, 10:56 PM
Baldie,your reply does you credit,and personally I would have the dam thing back,but,
There is a suggestion of "Tinkering" and I don't see that a private sale should carry the responsibility of,Timing,re-conditioning and then guaranteeing a 2nd. hand product,inspected by the buyer and sold for an agreed price.
Somewhere back in the thread someone asked for comments so I'll take that as an excuse for stirring it:)

Baldie
27-05-2004, 11:09 PM
slimjim


There is a suggestion of "Tinkering"

You can 'tinker' with a faulty regulator?

My comments were made in the understanding this flip/flop chrono result was due to a faulty regulator, and EV2's request about adjustment was an initial query about turning down the power (which would have been the 'proper' thing to do if the rifle was consistent but a bit 'overpowered' - allegedly).

Thanks for the 'credit'. I have to say I only found out about this 'goodie' impression after I confided why it is I have a less than shiny halo....

:D :D

Slim
27-05-2004, 11:18 PM
The bit that made me wonder was the first E.Mail being about how to adjust power,
This is just my opinion,and as I know neither party it is pure supposition,but couldn't a botched attempt to adjust power do a reg. in?
I don't really know but if I was looking at a refund it would make me think;)

Baldie
27-05-2004, 11:20 PM
but couldn't a botched attempt to adjust power do a reg. in?

Only if the allen key looked a lot like a hammer.

:D :D

Sid
27-05-2004, 11:21 PM
How about this matter is resolved by a duel ?

I'm sure we can find the relevant protocols ( who has to slap who with a glove and demand satisfaction, the proper exchange of visiting cards, choice of seconds, which weapons would be appropriate )

Is "Duelling" considered a good reason for owning a black powder pistol on an FAC ? if not the legal aspects could be a bit sticky and it'll need to be done with swords instead

Slim
27-05-2004, 11:43 PM
A hammer or Allen key can be used to Devastating results,
I know:(
I can't see this pair agreeing to protocols,
the can't even sort out who F///ed the rifle up in the first place:p

aquarius11
28-05-2004, 07:46 AM
Baldie,
if i had realised that it was over the limit, (which would have been at the June HFT comp as your rifle is crono'd as part of the comp), then i would have got it fixed but it would also have the P Wilson stock on it that i orderd then canceld due to previous explinations, if i needed to sell it later on then i would have asked more for it than i did, BUT THIS IS AN "IF" SITUATION.
as it happens i had loads of offers to buy.
Once again i sold the rifle as tried and seen and accepted by

I. J.
28-05-2004, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Sid
How about this matter is resolved by a duel ?

Is "Duelling" considered a good reason for owning a black powder pistol on an FAC ? if not the legal aspects could be a bit sticky and it'll need to be done with swords instead

Or blank firerers. Less messy but the Noise Abatement Society may get involved. :D

aquarius11
28-05-2004, 07:59 AM
Baldie,
if i had realised that it was over the limit, (which would have been at the June HFT comp as evrey rifle is crono'd as part of the comp), then i would have got it fixed but it would also have the P Wilson stock on it that i orderd then canceld due to previous explinations, if i needed to sell it later on then i would have asked more for it than i did, BUT THIS IS QNLY AN "IF" SITUATION.

To other replies,

As it happens i had loads of offers to buy at the price advertised which was cheap compared to some of the others selling AR5s 's
EV2 asked for first refusal and it was given.

Once again i sold the rifle as tried and seen and accepted by EV2 without any guarantee given, implied or offerd and to the best of my knowledge at LEGAL power setting.

The rifle was taken away and i have no idea of what its been through.

aquarius11

Baldie
28-05-2004, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by aquarius11
Baldie,

Once again i sold the rifle as tried and seen and accepted by EV2 without any guarantee given, implied or offerd and to the best of my knowledge at LEGAL power setting.

The rifle was taken away and i have no idea of what its been through.

aquarius11

Don't think the issue here is the measured power. It's the flakey regulator. Can't see myself (subject to being informed to the contrary) how someone can do this through mal-adjustment (and with a 'handle' like EV2 [obviously an anorak shooter:D] is he going to use the wrong method anyway)?

Inspection at Ripley will confirm either way. Regardless, you are saying as far as you are concerned, it's "sold-as-seen" and that's your legal perogative.

At least two of the 'senior' members here have said they think 50:50 is fair. Some newer members have said the same. Don't think I've seen one that says "Tough luck EV2 get on with it..." ***

I've been known to show interest in 800 rifles, and bought one yesterday. Don't think I'll ever be looking to buy anything from your direction though. Doubt I'll be the only one either.

After all, a cynic might think you sold the rifle knowing it would fail the test at the HFT in June. Not that the thought entered my head, but then I always think the best of everyone anyway.;)


:confused: :confused: :confused:


***
oops! From DJP:


I don't know the full ins and outs of it but from the above I'd say it's really the buyers problem - he obviously thought it was OK when he tried it out.

EV2
28-05-2004, 08:44 AM
Adrian

Just to finally clarify for you a few points

You cannot abdicate responsibility by trying to imply that i altered the gun and saying "you have no idea what the gun has been through".

The rifle has not been adjusted in any way well respected FT shooters within my club will verify this.

I did think that maybe adjusting the power would cure the problem hence my comment to you, but was informed by people far better qualified than me that the string of shots was far to extreme to be just a power adjustment cure, this was confirmed by Ripley.

You clearly have no conscience with regards to items that you sell, you sold a faulty rifle that was of illegal power.

I will not urge people not to deal with you in future as they will make there own minds up on that. When we met i believed you to be a genuine honest man with whoom i was pleased to be dealing with, I was wrong.

But You can rest easy as it is clear that you will not take any responsibility for this so i will pay to have the problem put right myself.

I take consolation in the fact of knowing that what goes around comes around and you still have yours to come.

Thanks to all for there views on this thread i have enjoyed reading them all, but would advise all that taking a chrono when buying a rifle is a must.

Jeff

roblade
28-05-2004, 09:18 AM
just my tuppence worth on this subject.

i have sold a couple of things on here, and no matter how desperatly i have wanted the money, i have never spent a penny of it until the buyer has contacted me saying he is happy with item bought. this way should there be any problems at all i would offer full refund (with buyer paying return postage).

but aquarius i would sujest you make some form of payment, even if not imidiatly, as said repairs cant be undertaken until june, even if its only a token payment.

if we cant be seen to be supporting each other why should those outside our sport support us?

is this showing a united front?

we are mostly all grwon ups on here and without tittle tattling, good faith is the foundation of good relations.

but in your defence, ev2 you walked away from the deal having shot the rifle, and been given a fair chance to see how it was shooting. I would have thought if there were any doubts at all that should have been the time to walk away. had this been a unseen deal i would have been behind you 100% but given the fact that you had hands on experiance with the rifle prior to purchase, i would be more inclined to be on the side of aquarius on this.

one question though was power level discused prior to viewing? did you ask if there was a chronograph availible? did you have one you could have borrowed?

but final word would be aquarius show some good faith and try to offer the best you can :)

hope you all get sorted

all the best

ROB :)

Sid
28-05-2004, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Baldie

At least two of the 'senior' members here have said they think 50:50 is fair.

The rifle shall be divided in half and one part given unto EV2 while the other part shall be given unto Aquarius.

I have spoken

:D

Craig-P
28-05-2004, 11:02 AM
I'm completely lost with this one...
It seems someone has sold a rifle to someone and that same rifle hasn't performed to someone else's expectations and the original someone doubts someone else's opinions...I don't know.

The best solution would be to burn the dark haired child of the someone else in the fires of someone, so that someone's loss is accounted for. The Ripley should go back to Derby so that Ripley Rifle's hatred burns less brightly - for their numbers are many. And finally, someone else should go in peace.
There - just like they do in Last of the Mohicans - and that all turned out well in the end:)

Chingachgook

Sid
28-05-2004, 11:06 AM
Doesn't someones bird have to leap off a cliff as well ? :D

Craig-P
28-05-2004, 11:15 AM
I think so....
....but perhaps we just throw some pellets or a windicator down the drain for that bit...:D

RichardH
28-05-2004, 11:38 AM
Cant actually be bothered now