Digital nv...............its here.....well nearly

[SCOTTK]

Well chuffed ive just been told that the new digital nv attachment is virtually good to go:eek: :eek: :eek: well end of the month to be precise.

Like many of us im not an nv expert and only had about 5 systems, currently using a cobra merlin which i like a lot, best of the bunch so far (newton yukon, Paladin, soviet stuff).

But hell im wetting my pants with anticipation at a near gen2 package thats meant to be very small (about 7.5cm) that doesnt get flare etc for about £700.

I know the proofs in the eating of and all that, just wondered if anyone else out there has viewd a prototype from http://www.gbsights.co.uk/digital.htm, waiting for theres? Wetting there pants? etc etc :p :p :p

[lspdog]

i spoke to the guys at GB sights today and was told that the pic on there site is the proto type which has been thru a lot of changes.

the finished product will be shorter and the ir illuminator will be in a diff place with diff options for mounting lasers etc.

Gary C has had a hand in the development and will be one of the first to get hold of one when they are released at the end of the month.I'm sure this is one review we will be waiting for with baited breath:D Keep an eye on Garys website www.mtcoptics.com for updates.

i've had no experience at all with nv so i hope this will be a good starting point i.e gen2 performance ,digital clarity and no tube to burn out?

can't wait!:)

simon.

[Baldie]

A word to the wise Scott.

Don't 'oversell' the product. When it comes out there will be ('cos there always is) teething troubles, little niggles. Not everyone will be happy etc etc.


The essence of what you're writing is correct, it is a good system. But don't anyone expect limitless numbers available on the day, nor for every unit to work perfectly from day one.

This is a world beaating product, but it's (practically) the first of its kind. Wait and see what the production version is like, and wait for a few (accurate) reports on it too.

The people who are making and promoting the product are understandably confident it's going to do everything we all expect of it. But they are aware this product follows another NV initiative that failed, and it failed about the same time last year this one is due for release this year. No-one is going to admit to being superstitious, but no-one wants to tempt fate either.

So ...... Calm. :cool:

[SCOTTK]

wise words baldie;) ....................and ones I am very aware off, thats why I was interested to see if anyone had any further info etc, viewings of the actual product, performance reliability.

proof of the pudding and all that mate....................but if it does what it says on the tin I know ill be extatic, like you say though mate it needs to prove itself.

Technology can be fantastic but also very frustrating;) I know I work in IT:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Have you used the digital bonoculars that are out now baldie, what are they like? Good points bad points?

Cheers

Scott

PS I'm still p&ssing my pants, lets hope im not posting a gutted post in a month or so

[Gary C]

I was involved in the testing as I have a little experience and a lot of rifles. As Geoffrey says, and he will be a vendor, it is new technology and until it hits the shops we have nothing.

The sight is designed and built by Gavin - Dogfox - on here who gained extensive experience from testing SB products. Gavin will not take orders until he has a product HE is happy with, and he is extremely self critical.

Until there is perfection there is nothing. When you see something get your wallet out.

Indications are that the units will be out in time for Christmas

[Baldie]

Have you used the digital bonoculars that are out now baldie, what are they like? Good points bad points?

Cheers

Scott



Major good point is that the Digital units are significantly easier to bring up to your eye, than a rifle. ;) :D

You can see much further than you can with most Gen I and LED illuminator. I've yet to demo one and not have either a sale or hear about an intended purchase. ;)

That said (and now mention of a drawback), someone who did a demo at the weekend had a bad experience. Two chaps took a unit out looking for bunnies. There weren't any about, but that didnt stop them spending 'quite some time' with the NV up at their eyes. This wasn't a good thing.

A couple of years ago I mentioned I was struggling with a kind of myopic blindness, having used NV during a session for possibly, way too long. My left eye would get used to darkness, and after about 40 minutes ought have become completely 'dark aware' and become fully dilated. My right eye, having looked through the NV, would get unusally high amounts of light compared with the left eye. This disparity can cause headaches, and eye fatigue.

The digital monoculars can have their brightness levels wound up so high, they produce a bright white light. Bit like staring into a torch if you look long enough. The solution of course, is to keep the light level from the unit as low as you can, and don't spend 20/30 minutes continuously looking for a rabbit. These units are so effective, I'd suggest if you can't see a rabbit inside 20/30 SECONDS, there's none to be found. And you will be seeing everything there is to see for 100-150 yards.

The Digital NV Gary and Gavin will be putting on the market has a solution to this, that I think (frankly) is inspired. Perhaps Yukon will follow by introducing a 'colour' element to the viewing screen.

[pixybasher]

What about this one....

http://bunnysight.com/

[Baldie]

What about this one....

http://bunnysight.com/



It's not digital.

In case you didn't know. ;) :D

[Lightyear]

Hi Geoff,

Do you have an opinion on the BunnySight ?

How does that work ?

I am not in a position to purchase either a normal NV set up or the above, but am always interested in learned opinion. (still getting to grips with the primative Logun Lamp - good fun though !)

Cheers + ATVB

Philip.

[Baldie]

Hi Geoff,

Do you have an opinion on the BunnySight ?

How does that work ?

I am not in a position to purchase either a normal NV set up or the above, but am always interested in learned opinion. (still getting to grips with the primative Logun Lamp - good fun though !)

Cheers + ATVB

Philip.


Hi Philip, hope you are well. ;)

Mr 'BunnySight' is selling a product that he imports from abroad. The same thing is available from a UK distributor for the same money, and with various lightweight illuminators. It's one of the range of products available and demonstratable to you and many others in the London and North Home Counties area. PM me if you ever want to have a look through one.

It's an "add-on" system that I've been using for 2 1/2 years. I've yet to see anything touch it in terms of price and performance.

[And getting back on thread...]

The Digital version does look to be quite an improvement. The big handicap of using NV that's using light from a dayscope, is loss of sensitivity. Dayscope may well be claiming 90+% of light transmission, but that is only one part of the story. You need more light (via an illuminator) when looking through 'add-on' systems fitted to a day scope.

Or you need a more sensitive image receiver/amplifier. "Digital systems", come on down. ;) :D

Image quality isn't quite as good, but the difference isn't great. But lets try to put this into perspective. If the intensifier is 2-3 times more sensitive, but the line pair/pixel count is reduced by 25%, you are still way in front of where you started.


My only criticism of the new system is that it's too cheap. If the company doesn't make enough profit (a dirty word to Brits), the company won't provide the service it should, nor stay afloat. Look at Soviet Bazaar. Not enough profit (prices too keen), and it went down the tubes....

This unit, when it comes on the market, should be priced somewhere between £900-£999. (a) Because it's worth it, and (b) because I want the company to make enough money for it to be able to develop the Mark II and Mark III versions. ;)

[Lightyear]

Many thanks for that.

I am certainly well...and hope you are also.

I am really having a great time getting out and about chasing those bunnies - I will always be grateful to you for that.:D

Would such an add-on be workable on a springer or are we talking PCP here because of the recoil ??

Cheers + ATVB

Philip.

[Baldie]

Would such an add-on be workable on a springer or are we talking PCP here because of the recoil ??

Cheers + ATVB

Philip.

Would depend on the type of recoil: Vicious vs. Gentle. :D

Probably wiser to say 'not suitable'. Something like the AA100SR (if that is the one I'm thinking of) would be okay, but my mate has a Gamo something or other that I wouldn't want to see one on the back of. The units are robust and I use one on a centrefire. BUT a springer can be quite nasty as I think it moves both ways when it goes off.

If the recoil was bad enough, it would make the inside of the NV look like it had been dropped. "Abused" and no warranty.....


Hunting with a springer? You like a challenge then? ;) :D

[Gary C]

[quote='Baldie [aka GeeDee];1447879']Hi Philip, hope you are well. ;)




My only criticism of the new system is that it's too cheap. If the company doesn't make enough profit (a dirty word to Brits), the company won't provide the service it should, nor stay afloat. Look at Soviet Bazaar. Not enough profit (prices too keen), and it went down the tubes....

Not the reason Geoff

[Baldie]

Not the reason Geoff


Couldn't have helped?

Cashflow/money buries more blah blah ....

[rusham]

I know the proofs in the eating of and all that, just wondered if anyone else out there has viewd a prototype from http://www.gbsights.co.uk/digital.htm, waiting for theres? Wetting there pants? etc etc :p :p :p



Dear Father Christmas,

I've been a good boy all year...........

[Weevie]

;1447879']My only criticism of the new system is that it's too cheap

Too cheap! :eek:

Too expensive I'd say!

The manufacturers are clearly not using enough child labour! What's wrong with these chaps!

Wouldn't have happened when we had an empire y'know, oh no. People knew their place...:mad:


:D :D :D

Sorry. Mother always said I didn't take things seriously enough. <ahem>

[nasha]

cheap = with in budget = sell more product .
expensive = over budget= not so many sold .

if this unit is as good as the hype and can be produced cheap enough to make it an "every mans" choice then why should it be wrong.

this sounds like it could change nv for everyone including the current manifactures of other systems .


i would think the worry will soon turn to , " can we produce enough " rather than "are we to cheap"

if this product is what they say it is then the effect could be increadable in the night vision world .

[Baldie]

cheap = with in budget = sell more product .
expensive = over budget= not so many sold .




You are naive, and show little evidence to understanding how to run a (manufacturing) business.

The market determines the price, not the customer. It doesn't take an MBA student to know you'd sell more, if the product was practically given away. The idea is to avoid working hard for nothing.

Why would any business sell a better product for less than the competitions inferior product? As I keep saying, "profit" is a dirty work in this country.

As a reference I once sat in a seminar [MSc course] where the UK Marketing Director from Estee Lauder (that well know market stall brand) told us that each successive product released, HAS to be more expensive than the last. If it were not so, the market would perceive the product to be inferior to the last brand released.

This digital NV system is a world leader, or potentially so. If it were marketed at £1200 as direct competition to Gen II+ it would still sell. The market is after all global, and this unit can sell all over the world, not just to BBS members. They'll be no problem with stock sitting on a shelf, even at £1200.

When the product is released it will sell. When the makers realise they are giving a £3-£400 discount on every unit (money they may need in the future to fund other initiatives) it'll be too late. The market would tolerate a £400 drop, but I doubt it would be so keen on a £400 increase.

...

[nasha]

You are naive, and show little evidence to understanding how to run a (manufacturing) business.

may be i am but that was a litle personal was it not ?

[Prodigal]

The market determines the price, not the customer.

So if the "market" determines a price out of reach of the majority of customers who want the product the "market" thrives?? :confused:

[larena]

Wife bought me a digital NV binocular last week,early Xmas gift,cost her £300 but wouldnt have felt cheated if the product cost double that,it really is THAT good ;)

[Baldie]

You are naive, and show little evidence to understanding how to run a (manufacturing) business.

may be i am but that was a litle personal was it not ?

It was personal. But what could I say that would have meant the same but been impersonal? It wasn't meant to be taken as an offensive remark though.

I'm naive, in certain fields we all are. But I do know how to maximise a products potential. Anyone, and I do mean anyone, can undersell a product to get it sold.

The market determines the price, not the customer.

So if the "market" determines a price out of reach of the majority of customers who want the product the "market" thrives?? :confused:

If you build down to a price you typically get a shoddy product. If there's ONE THING you mustn't do with an innovation, it's make it shoddy. Over-price it is okay. Make it reliable, or provide a service that makes it seem reliable. Once you have proved the product, and it has a market presence, then look at re-pricing to gain a larger market if you have to.

As I've said, why would you undersell an innovative product? I know I could sell these at £1200. In fact, I could sell them for £2000. At £700/£800 they are practically a gift.


Forget your position as a consumer, answer this and answer it honestly:

Your company can make a unit every 4 hours. It can sell 4 units a day, at £800 or 2 units a day at £1200.

At £800 the company makes £100 profit. At £1200 it makes £500 profit.

At £800 you can't keep up with demand. You have to work 12 hours a day, and still keep customers waiting. You make £300 a day, and the company stands still while the competition catches up.

At £1200 you keep up with demand, and work 8 hours a day. You get an hour or 2 everyday to work on new projects. As you make £1000 a day, you are able to secure the future of your company and produce a range of additional products. The competition stays behind.


Which of these two is the 'smart' scenario?


The nearest next comparible product will cost (today) £1200 or more. Explain to me the business justification for selling a premium product for 25% less than your nearest competitive product.

...

[nasha]

im not sure this angle of the thread should continue ! i realy dont see what good you are doing .

i personaly could almost afford a £750 unit but could not go any thing like as high as £1200 . im not alone here .

im a mason i earn good money infact i run my own firm , this summer i upped my money thinking my costumers can aford me they are mostly millionairs . all summer i had won every quoat i gave , since the price increase i only got about 50% accepted .

i think i will go back to being not cheap but afordable , and be bissy rather than deer and looking at 2 months at home with out suitable winter work.


if you guys that produce this unit are listening . please try to keep the unit affordable , as im sure will more than 90% of the customers of the world .

[Prodigal]

;1451106']It was personal. But what could I say that would have meant the same but been impersonal? It wasn't meant to be taken as an offensive remark though.

I'm naive, in certain fields we all are. But I do know how to maximise a products potential. Anyone, and I do mean anyone, can undersell a product to get it sold.



If you build down to a price you typically get a shoddy product. If there's ONE THING you mustn't do with an innovation, it's make it shoddy. Over-price it is okay. Make it reliable, or provide a service that makes it seem reliable. Once you have proved the product, and it has a market presence, then look at re-pricing to gain a larger market if you have to.

As I've said, why would you undersell an innovative product? I know I could sell these at £1200. In fact, I could sell them for £2000. At £700/£800 they are practically a gift.


Forget your position as a consumer, answer this and answer it honestly:

Your company can make a unit every 4 hours. It can sell 4 units a day, at £800 or 2 units a day at £1200.

At £800 the company makes £100 profit. At £1200 it makes £500 profit.

At £800 you can't keep up with demand. You have to work 12 hours a day, and still keep customers waiting. You make £300 a day, and the company stands still while the competition catches up.

At £1200 you keep up with demand, and work 8 hours a day. You get an hour or 2 everyday to work on new projects. As you make £1000 a day, you are able to secure the future of your company and produce a range of additional products. The competition stays behind.


Which of these two is the 'smart' scenario?


The nearest next comparible product will cost (today) £1200 or more. Explain to me the business justification for selling a premium product for 25% less than your nearest competitive product.

...

Geoffrey.
You know as well as I that profit is the bottom line. Before that can be calculated deductions from gross turnover are made. Overheads, infeed material costs, labour, and for anyone with a longterm strategy for staying in business, R+D costs, along with many others.
All these come BEFORE calculating profit. Don't forget the advantages of buying power for better cost prices and the reduced costs of batch production. Factor in the stability of a wider business trade spread also.
Now, if you could sell 5 units making 300 quid profit per unit, or 10 units per day, making 200 quid profit per unit, for the reducing per unit production cost, which road would you go down??

My investment portfolio (all 5.78p of it) awaits your reply.:D

I don't follow the management spouted ideology that "The customer is king"
I believe that we (the company I work for) is No1. Staying in business.
The customer is a very close second. Getting good service and good prices.
Fine line.:eek:

[Baldie]

Now, if you could sell 5 units making 300 quid profit per unit, or 10 units per day, making 200 quid profit per unit, for the reducing per unit production cost, which road would you go down??

My investment portfolio (all 5.78p of it) awaits your reply.:D

I don't follow the management spouted ideology that "The customer is king"
I believe that we (the company I work for) is No1. Staying in business.
The customer is a very close second. Getting good service and good prices.
Fine line.:eek:


Assuming limitless supply of components, assume [ii] timely supply of components assume [iii] limitless supply of assembly resources [jigs/manpower/storage] assume [iv] 100% perfect quality control assume [v] perfect design assume [vi] 100% reliability of component parts over warranty period assume [vii] limitless reasource for post sales support .....

In this scenario, with a fairly mature product [more than 4 months] I'd choose to go for the 10 unit option. But I'll guarantee 3 or more of these are missing from almost ANY new assembly going into production. Yet here (some of you) are "assuming" they are all a 'given'. It just isn't realistic.


Very true words. At last someone who understands how business [I]actually works.

[Prodigal]

So will you take my 5.78p as a deposit on one then?? ;) :D

[Baldie]

So will you take my 5.78p as a deposit on one then?? ;) :D


I will. ;) :D


Please send cheque to ...... ;)

[SCOTTK]

its on its way:D :D :D :D

****ing my pants:p