Question..

[Pyrodex]

i have just got my firearms licence back after a variation request- i asked for amongst other things the ability to use solid shot for my .50 smooth bore muzzle loader- which i have on my shotgun licence.
the FLO that came round was great, very friendly and great to deal with, but he didnt know much about muzzle loaders, and couldnt tell me whether there was a limit on the number of solid shot to possess like my rifle ammo, so he said he'd get back to me. he didnt, and my cert has dropped through my door with everything i had asked for on it EXEPT the entry for solid shot.
its too late to call them tonight, so i thought i'd check on here before i phone them in the morning (i bet they are sick of me-ive been chasing my cert for weeks) :p
can anyone clarify whether they have not given me this because you dont need a seperate entry on an FAC to use solid shot in a muzzle loader (unlike a cartridge shotgun) or whether it is a clerical error i have to bend ears for!?

[Smokeless Coal]

I think your smooth bore would have to be entered under section 1 FAC to fire single shot. There is a minimum number of shot to fire as a shotgun I think it's 5.

There would be no limit to the number of single shot slugs you hold as there is no limit to the number of just heads that anyone can hold without a ticket (except fragmenting heads)

I'm not certain and I'm sure someone will come along and correct me if I am wrong.

Just had a rethink and you have me stumped now.

m/l with rifled barrel is sec1
m/l with smooth bore is sec 2 ie musket, a musket would by definition fire a ball.

No I pass on this one.

[Pyrodex]

:rolleyes: see what i mean? its a puzzler isnt it!
i think it may be the case that it being a smooth bore it doesnt have to be entered.. like you said- its a musket and by definition fires ball.. but i wouldnt like to be wrong.. :confused:

[Pyrodex]

anyone?

[Chocchip]

Theres certainly no direct reference to this area in the home office guidance to police - my guess on this is that a shotgun certificate would still be fine as your not using cartridges/ammunition. The slug restriction is based on a type of cartridge/ammunition - that is the number and size of projectiles in a cartridge.

[John Bedford]

As long as the gun is listed on your FAC, along with any others you own, then you're OK to shoot single ball with it.

Muzzle loader ammunition components (ie: the balls) don't have to be entered on your FAC like rimfire/centrefire stuff and there's no restriction on how many you can hold.

If the gun isn't listed on your FAC but covered by a SGC instead then you cannot legally use single ball. You need to apply for a variation on your FAC to have it added as a firearm.

...............I think.

[Smokeless Coal]

I take it one off this forum has posed the question on MLAGB

http://www.mlagb.com/cgi/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=bp_chat;action=display;num=118068294 0

Still not 100% clear.

Where is it written in an official doocument to cover the firers @ss.

[loach369]

Hi

If it is held on a shotgun certificate you may only load and fire it with a shot load containing five or more projectiles non of which exceed .36" in diameter.

If it is held on a firearms certificate you may shoot it with solid ball and/or shot but only as per the specific conditions of you FAC.

If it is held on your FAC you do not need any authority to purchase/manufacture or possess projectiles/balls/bullets for it as these are not classed as complete rounds of ammunition.

Cheers

Lee

[Smokeless Coal]

Not according to the post on MLAGB forum. They are saying it was debated with the Home Office who say its a smooth bore m/l on SGC and you can stuff a ball down it.

Not arguing, as I said I dont know. There are these silly anomalies in the licencing and we are expected to have an encyclopedic knowledge or face jail and a lifetime ban on ownership.

I have one I'm thrashing out with ACPO at the moment. A parlour pistol with a 4mm bore fired by percussion cap alone, is it a muzzle loaded sec 1? Is it section 2 as a smooth bore though firing a single projectile? Is it an airgun due to low muzzle energy of sub 3ft/lb? Is it obsolete calibre despite being modern manufacure?

[loach369]

Hi
If you load it with a solid ball it is not a shotgun. You need it on your FAC.
I took advice on exactly this scenario when renewing an FAC holders ticket several years ago.
I'm retired now but as far as I am aware the law has not changed:cool:

Re the parlour pistol. You say its modern manufacture so no Section 58 exemption then. (Modern is held to be manufactured after 1939).
In the first instance it is definately not a Section 2 firearm as it will have a barrel less than 24 inches.
Is it capable of inflicting a lethal injury? (This held to be in excess of 1 joule). If yes then it is a lethal barreled weapon and therefore a firearm.
It is most certainly not an airgun as the means of propulsion is the chemical reaction/gas effect of an exploding percussion cap and not compressed air /CO 2 etc.
It is therefore a section 1 muzzle loading pistol and must be entered on your FAC if you want to shoot it!

[Smokeless Coal]

A friend had to classify some zimmer shutezen held by the Imperial War museum. Granted they were antiques but had to be tested and classified for some reason.
They have an 8" barrel and fired flobert caps, all produced under 6ft/lb so were designated airguns. An explosion creates a compressed gas in a confined space. The release of gas create MV within the range of an airgun.

[loach369]

All I can say is .... get in in writing from your FEO.
I've seen more than one decent person dragged through the courts because of 'misunderstandings' in relation to personal interpretations of the various Firearms Acts by those who should know better!!!!

[Smokeless Coal]

Its lodged with an RFD awaiting written result from ACPO.

[loach369]

Smokeless Coal...
You Sir, are a wise man !!!! :D:D:D
Lee