long range pistol

[black powder]

on the subject of long range i shoot at shellford gun club lou moor club chairman regularly shoots a playing card edge ways on at 50mts with a weihrauch hw45 177 pistol bleve it or not:)

[Lou]

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[Jim McArthur]

Lou, that is a terrific feat! At 50 meters, I couldn't SEE it, much less shoot it! :D

Certainly destroys the myth that air pistols are strictly for close range! :)

Jim

[Lou]

The card shown was hit with a 22 Air Arms field diablo, I will post another pic where I used a 177 "hollow point". The difference is interesting. The curve of the trajectory is different and the cut of the 177 is neater.
Its amazing what you can do with a gun. Ed McGivern is my hero!

[barrow_matt]

certainly an impressive feat, what are the general rules for distance pistol shooting, rested, 1 ore 2 handed etc?

Matt

[TURIN TURAMBAR]

Excellent. I have a Rohm which performs well at longer ranges (.177 RWS Geco/Bisley Practice). Just posted a thread on General Airgun forum asking question re tweaking power output. Bloke who owns/runs the range where I shoot is a champion pistol shooter and reckons pistol shooting is the most demanding. More chance for human error which is why I said Rohm performs well and not me! :)

[Sam Vimes]

Excellent. I have a Rohm which performs well at longer ranges (.177 RWS Geco/Bisley Practice).

Try a quality dome head pellet for ranges in excess of 10-15 yards. I found that flat heads were fine at close quarters through my Rohm but groups suffered in comparison the more you pushed the distance.;)

[TURIN TURAMBAR]

Thanks Sam, will try AA or H&N's which I have supplies of. Steve

[harrisP]

I doubt I could do that with my rifle never mind a pistol.

[Lou]

There are no specific rules for long range air pistol because no one believes that you can use them accurately at 50 yds anyway!
As th HW45 is a springer, I shoot it two handed with elbows rested (but not the gun or your hands) so that the recoil is allowed to occur "naturally". I dont use a backing card for these shots so if I miss I dont know where the shot has gone. When you shoot pistol, the light affects the aim point. Indoor ranges are OK but out doors where I shoot Bright sun or dull sky affects the point of aim considerably. Normally in target shooting the point of aim is below the bull, into the "white" so that you can see the sights. To shoot the playing cards edge on, its best to just have the card without anything behind and aim dead at it. If you dont hit it dead on you just get a slight indentation along the face of the card like a biro line.
I started doing this because I read that it was impossible to cut the card edge on with (any) bullet and it was all a trick because the card would "give" to the bullet. I fasten the card to a post with one staple in the bottom corner so it is free to flex but as you see, it rips. I think the only reason it doesnt go right through is that at 5 ft pds the pellet hasnt got the energy at 50 yds. Incidentally I cant do it every single shot! but the one I did last time (Wed) was on my third shot.

[brucieboy]

I thought i had heard just about everything in my time but this certainly tops all.
A playing card,edge on at 50 metres!,less than half a millimetre thick!.It can't even be seen at that range.
Now come on,tell us it was placed edge on, on top of a block about 150mm square to give an aiming point first,so you know more or less where it is,and then you would hit it eventually after enough shots,maybe.
This kind of talk just encourages irresponsible shooting by the more impressionable amongst us.

[Lou]

I can see it.
How does that encourage irresponsible shooting?

[Lou]

as I said earlier, it is stapled to a post vertically by its bottom corner to allow it to flex. Just because you cant see it .....................

[brucieboy]

you mean you can see the post!!,i defy any human to see .5 of a millimetre at 50 metres,unaided.

It encourages people to shoot beyond their ability and beyond the range of there pistol/rifle, by reading such claims they imagine they can also do it.

[Lou]

are you saying that I am a liar? that I cannot see a card at 50 yds?

[Jim McArthur]

Ed McGivern is my hero!

You couldn't find a better one,mate! ;)

Jim

[Jim McArthur]

This kind of talk just encourages irresponsible shooting by the more impressionable amongst us.

If he's shooting at an inanimate object, the range to same is clear, and he's sure of his backstop: he's not irresponsible, if he's shooting at 1000 meters.

Jim

[Sam Vimes]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1281/5061199/10351112/279699736.jpg

Calm down fellas!;)

[brucieboy]

I would'nt call any-one i don't know a liar,i never even suggested such a thing,and apologise if that is how you took it.
All i said is it's a small target at a long range,the equivalent of a 50mm disc at 5 kilometres,and i stand in awe at any-one with that kind of eyesight.

[Lou]

OK fair enough. Lets calm down (I am a Liverpudlian by the way, we do get excitable)
I assure you that I can see that far but I must also point out that I am sixty years of age and have shot pistol for Nottinghamshire county team for years (have the badge) until it was all banned.
I do shoot at the card, but for all pistol shooters, I have to focus on the card and then the sights alternately because I cant focus on both simultaniously.
What you have to do is hold the gun really steady and adjust to the aim point, so that finally when you take the shot you are focussed on the sights, instinctively knowing you are over the card. Thats why its best without any backing to the target to cause interference from the light. As you know when its bright the aim point can look enormous under the bull on a white card.

However Darren M. Mad dogman. Blackpowder and a lot of other shooters are witnesses to these shots. Phil Bulmer is thinking of writing a "Hit and Myth" about it. Please ask them what they think. It was Blackpowder who started this thread....................

[Phil Bulmer]

Phil Bulmer is thinking of writing a "Hit and Myth" about it.

Hi all,

Nice to see we are all calm and collected. :D It's interesting to see how text can lack internation and folk can get the wrong impression. Meanwhile.......

Next week I'll bring my camera to the club and see this for myself. For the benefit of casual observers, Lou is a crackshot with his HW45. I've seen him demolishing all sorts of stuff at 50 yards, including cherry tomatoes and playing cards face on. The end-on playing card trick is a big ask, but I'm sure it's possible.

Next week will settle it, I'll stand as an independent witness. If anyone is a betting man I'd suggest good odds that Lou can indeed do this.

Cheers,


Phil

[Lou]

well there you go. I will have to do it to order. you cant argue with that.
To those in Matlock who shoot, do you remember Bill Parr (great fellow) and his club on the Via Gellia, Cromford? Well I used to do well in a lot of the comps there, including the Parker Hale Show, when I won a new 32 Mag Smith and Wesson against all comers.
Read "Fast and Fancy Pistol Shooting " by Ed McGivern and you will see that amazing feats have been achieved with handguns, as far back as "Buffalo Bill"
Its sad that you cant believe that someone can hit a card at 50 yds when Ed could hit two x 2inch blocks thrown at the same time in the air with a revolver.

If you dont push it you will never get anywhere.
Ed said "The guns can do it"

[jo-1219]

Hi lou, i would love to see the shots, get your mate to put the film on you tube. i'm a bit of a newbie, couldn't hit a barn door at that range........... BUT I've just got a daystate mk3 from 'I need a lazer '(mick. top bloke) step up from the supersport and hope to get better groups soon. any tips?

[Jim McArthur]

well there you go. I will have to do it to order. you cant argue with that.
To those in Matlock who shoot, do you remember Bill Parr (great fellow) and his club on the Via Gellia, Cromford? Well I used to do well in a lot of the comps there, including the Parker Hale Show, when I won a new 32 Mag Smith and Wesson against all comers.


Lou, since you mentioned the .32 mag: what is your opinion of the .32 S&W long, vs. the .38 special, for accuracy? :confused:

Jim

[Lou]

The 32mag has amazing potential for accuracy but as a serious shooter one has to handload ammo and thats where the problem starts.
Because of all the smaller dimensions, any discrepancy is amplified. ie if you seat the bullet a few thousands of an inch deeper the pressure will be lots higher. Even using fine powder (Vhightavori) its hard to keep the measures accurate even with a Dillon measure. With 357/38 its far more forgiving because the volumes are twice the size.
However, having said all of that, if you could load it with the right load, then 32mag is as good as 22RF for accuracy and has a similar recoil. For long distance, imagine (say) an 8"" S&W with a good 32mag, Wow. It could beat 38.
I did give up on it though because 38/357 is much easier to load.
(PS. someone will shout at us now for discussing firearms in the airgun forum)
If 32 magnum had been around then, Ed would have used it for fast shooting.
Imagine the difference in the weight and travel of the cylinder!

[Lou]

Sorry, for all the above reasons 32 long is hopeless except for factory ammo at short range

[darren m]

hi all -- just to confirm lou is a crack shot with the pistol , and i and many others at the range are amazed at his ability to out shoot the rest of us who are using scoped precharged and springer air rifles .
i,ve seen him shoot the playing card side on at 50 metres ( outdoor range ) several times now , and would,nt have beleaved it if i had,nt seen him do it .

would also like to add , lou does,nt hunt quarry etc , he,s a target shooter thru n thru and would never take an unsafe or stupid shot .

i,d love to see some one challenge him to a shoot off with HW45's:):):) .

phil - see you sunday , bring your digi-cam .

Darren .

[Lou]

Right!!!!!! Mr "brucieboy" has criticised my shooting publicly.
He thinks that seeing a playing card at 50 yds end on is impossible?
He says that a human can't even see that far!
There are a lot of BBS members plus a lot of club members who have watched me do this, I didn't write to the BBs about it, yet now I have had to agree to do it in front of an airgun magazine journalist to prove tht I can do it.
I was simply enjoying my shooting. The other club members put it on the BBS. A lot of people were happy to accept what I did, including Hans Wheirauch himself! and Jim McArthur of New Orleans (thank G
od someone who seems to understand what its all about)
Now that you have given me grief, I want to know publicly what your shooting credentials are. You say.............
" I thought i had heard just about everything in my time but this certainly tops all.A playing card,edge on at 50 metres!,less than half a millimetre thick!.It can't even be seen at that range. Now come on,tell us it was placed edge on, on top of a block about 150mm square to give an aiming point first,so you know more or less where it is,and then you would hit it eventually after enough shots,maybe.This kind of talk just encourages irresponsible shooting by the more impressionable amongst us."
Then you say
"you mean you can see the post!!,i defy any human to see .5 of a millimetre at 50 metres,unaided.It encourages people to shoot beyond their ability and beyond the range of there pistol/rifle, by reading such claims they imagine they can also do it."
Then you say
"All i said is it's a small target at a long range,the equivalent of a 50mm disc at 5 kilometres,and i stand in awe at any-one with that kind of eyesight."

Do you mean that if I claim to be able to run a mile in one minute, then I am claiming to run fifty miles in fifty minutes? Thats interesting maths.
How do you know that what I have done is not possible? Please explain.
I would like you to tell us all about your shooting credentials, what you think is reasonable for an air pistol, how you come by these ideas. What your achievements are.
Thats a fair question isnt it?

[Terry D]

Here's an idea; seeing that Lou is a highly-respected chap, a renowned pistol shooter, and his feat of hitting a playing card, edge-on at the range stated has been witnessed by quite a few people - shall we refrain from any disparaging comments, at least until after the 'official' demonstration?

Yes, that's what we'll do. And I'll close this thread until then.

All in favour say 'aye'.

Motion carried. ;)

[snock]

Some pictures from today's attempt with Lou at the trigger:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5633/longrange1id5.jpg

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/5752/longrange2vi4.jpg

http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/7825/longrange3zs2.jpg

This from Phil Bulmer:

UPDATE

The argument is now settled. I went to the shooting club today with Lou and he set up a card at the 50 yard point. It was patently obvious that nobody could shoot a card every time so I suggested he simply sat and shot until the card was hit. I observed through my rifle scope as Lou began shooting at the card. Typically he was shooting 2 to 3 shots per minute. I watched the card wobble a few times after it’s base was clipped. Within 10 minutes Lou had successfully struck the card and torn it across a 3rd of its length. The card can’t be cut all the way through; the pellet has less than 1ftlb at the target, which is insufficient to cleave it in two. However, it does prove conclusively that it is possible to aim at and hit a card with a pistol at this range and within a limited number of shots.

The test has also proved that a card can indeed be seen at this range. The card is visible on its own but placed against a backstop it can produce a shadow when illuminated by direct sunlight. The test was conducted under an overcast sky without shadow; Lou was sighting the card’s edge directly. The pistol was an unmodified (aside a replacement mainspring) HW45 delivering around 4ftlb at the muzzle. The pellets being used were AA Field in .22