Maximun Legal barrel length of Pistol

[TwoTitans]

Hi,
Could anyone please confirm if there is a maximum length of barrel that can legally be fitted to an air pistol here in the UK, i have a 2240 for sale on the forum with a 10" barrel which is sub 6ftlbs and am informed by bbs member peter5761 that it is illegal as barrel lengths over 8" are not permitted.

thanks in advance

[screwdriver]

cannot see a problem as long as power is below 6ftpds its still a pistol , its when you use a long barrel at over 6ftpds and try and class it as a rifle, my drozd has a 16inch barrel and a removable stock but its still classed as a pistol

[TwoTitans]

Guessed as much, if there was a problem with pistol barrels over 8" long crosman would have to recall all the 1377's sold and chop 2.25 inch off them all:rolleyes:no doubt there are numerous others out there over 8" long, seem to remember the SSP250 was a 10" job

[Jerry Cornelius]

I suspect the issue was that some aftermarket parts suppliers said they would not fit a barrel longer than 8" to a 2240 as it might take the power over 6 ft lbs. Obviously there are other factors in play, such as the valve and the temperature.

TBH personally I would not be comfortable with a figure very close to 6 ft lbs for a 2240, given that I would want a margin for safety and the power of a CO2 gun can be quite sensitive to temperature. But its up to the owner what he feels happy with.

[TwoTitans]

Hi Jerry

The 2240 was set up to take into account the muzzle velocity increase when temperature variation occurs in the upward direction, the method used is a little heath robinson but by placing in the airing cupboard to simply get the pistol nice and toastie as it may do on a warm day and then run it over the chronograph it is somewhat more reliable than setting up on a cold day and hoping all is well.;)

[Jerry Cornelius]

Hi Jerry

The 2240 was set up to take into account the muzzle velocity increase when temperature variation occurs in the upward direction, the method used is a little heath robinson but by placing in the airing cupboard to simply get the pistol nice and toastie as it may do on a warm day and then run it over the chronograph it is somewhat more reliable than setting up on a cold day and hoping all is well.;)

Very sensible precaution mate no criticism was intended.

[vfrkid]

My Drozd has a 14in barrel and a stock and is still classed as a pistol.

[majex45]

I believe that there is no maximum legal length to an air pistol barrel.
However if the length of the barrel puts it over 6 ftlb then the barrel length must be 12" or more and the whole arm must be 24" or more.
ie betwen the minimum length to exceed 6 ftlbs and 12" is prohibited.
There is no such thing as an FAC air pistol, they move straight to prohibited status.
(By the way, I know the Act says 12" barrel OR 24" overall but that is not how the police interpret it).

[Snapshot]

The 12" barrel/24" length rule applies to firearms and has not been tested against airguns AFAIK. The BSA Ultra would certainly fail on barrel length as would the S10 carbine, Falcon's FN8 and others I can't think of at the moment.

Jonathan

[majex45]

I'll check my copy of the Act again, they may have put in the phrase "not being an air weapon" which they have done in the past. (see Firearms (amendment) Act 1988 Section 2(2)(a)).

[ikarma70]

rubbish....crosman 1377 barrels are 10''+.

[majex45]

OK, so does anyone have a S1 air pistol on ticket?
I don't believe they exist, but I can't find my copy of the 1997/8 Acts.

[Jim McArthur]

I believe that there is no maximum legal length to an air pistol barrel.
However if the length of the barrel puts it over 6 ftlb then the barrel length must be 12" or more and the whole arm must be 24" or more.
ie betwen the minimum length to exceed 6 ftlbs and 12" is prohibited.
There is no such thing as an FAC air pistol, they move straight to prohibited status.
(By the way, I know the Act says 12" barrel OR 24" overall but that is not how the police interpret it).

That's an interesting example of how US and UK laws differ: and how, sometimes, US law is stricter.

On the one hand, air guns (and muzzleloaders) are not even considered firearms here, and are essentially unregulated by federal law.

On the other hand, our rifle dimension laws restrict barrels to a minimum of 16 inches, and overall length to a minimum of 26 inches. Any shorter, and they are regulated under the same law as machine guns. :eek:

The same law that regulates silencers. :eek::eek:

Then again, we can generally get away with shotgun barrels being as short as 18". But the overall shotgun length can't be less than 26".

Jim

[Snapshot]

rubbish....crosman 1377 barrels are 10''+.And your point is?

[majex45]

1(2)(aba) any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetresin length overall, other than an air weapon ...etc
Later it says:
(1A) "small calibre pistol means-
a) A pistol chambered for .22 or smaller rim-fire cartridges; or
b) An air pistol to which section 1 of this Act applies and which is designed to fire .22 or smaller diameter ammunition.

Now, I cannot find the later amendment, which prohibited small calibre pistols, to see whether the exemption for air pistols was also removed at that time. Anyone got a copy?

[TwoTitans]

What actually defines an air gun as a pistol ? is it not down to having pistol grips by design and being sub 6 ftlb

[Target Bunny]

UMMMM
You can legally get a "short barrel rifle" Which is a long barrel pistol with a rearward extension to the stock, this is normally in the form of a counterweight to the long barrel, but I can not remember the source but local gunsmiths will tell you chapter and verse.
The point is that it is weapons designated as "handguns" which are illegal and air pistols are not included in that group but their power output is legaly restricted and it is by exceeding the power output that it then becomes classed as a hndgun and as such illegal. I repeat the key word is "handgun" and the deffinition is very exact because the idea is to prevent the use of easily concealed weapons by irresponsible people.:eek:
Target Bunny

[Snapshot]

the idea is to prevent the use of easily concealed weapons by irresponsible people.:eek:
Target BunnyWhich, of course, it doesn't. It only restricts responsible people. But you knew that....

Jonathan

[hayesman]

cannot see a problem as long as power is below 6ftpds its still a pistol , its when you use a long barrel at over 6ftpds and try and class it as a rifle, my drozd has a 16inch barrel and a removable stock but its still classed as a pistol




this taken from the same thread could you class a pistol as a rifle would it be leagal......?????

[Target Bunny]

Snapshot & Hayesman
I agree with both of you BUT, we are dealing with polititians and not sensible people here.

The barrel length of your pistol is unimportant as far as the act goes Haysman. It is the "removable" stock bit that causes you a problem because the de-facto state of your gun is that it is a pistol with an option to convert it to a carbine.

In all compressed gas weapons the barrel length affects the power output because it allows extra time for the gas to accelerate the projectile and by doing so it affects the speed and therefore the power, expressed in foot pounds, and this is where the trade off between friction/charge/spin needs to be calculated to get the best results.
I'm stoping now 'cause my brain hurts
Target Bunny

[hayesman]

So if i wanted to converet a pistol in to a carbine could this be done with proper bocuments or am i just think of stupid sh*t...i understand what you r sayin bunny just wondering about this thats all.....i have chance of a falcon fn8 .177 off a mate of mine and inthink it would be a good tool if it could be converted (legallyyyyyy of course) to be say a litttle carbine for all my lovely rats that i need to get rid of......any ideas....???

[Target Bunny]

OK haysman I can see where you are headed with this one.
The honest answer is: I aint sure! I think it will depend on how your conversion is done.
For example there is a minimum barrel length (no I don't know without looking it up) and no matter what you do you can not get round this. Then there is the minimum total length (same as before) which you can not escape. Next comes the stock itself, and it has to be a "stock", which may incorporate a pistol grip but I am not at all certain as to how this next bit is described although I believe it is along the lines of "must not divide easily at the pistol grip" because if it does you have a convertable pistol and not a short barrel rifle. As far as I am aware it comes down to the simplicity of making the gun a handgun.

As far as the conversion goes any pistol with a wooden grip which attatches the mechanism to the hand held part of the gun can be converted by screwing and glueing (has to be both or plod can claim it's easy to take the screws out and convert to a pistol) a stock to the grip. No doubt metal framed pistols can be converted using machine screws and GRP.

These are only personal observations based on what I can remember and experience with how plod thinks, but, it's better to be safe than sorry.

Anyone like to pick holes in this or start a new thread for legal issues? We need a lot more coverage of issues like this.
Target Bunny

[hayesman]

A up bunny,i see your point mate and where you r coming from.If we take the crossmann rat catcher for example is this not based on a pistol if i am right (please correct me if wrong) the stock can be removed and i am sure that pistol grips could be put.So in essance we have a very powerful pistol....any thoughts......thanks for the reply bunny....any more comments very welcome...

[TwoTitans]

removing stock and fitting pistol grips would be classed as a modification and an illicit one, a bit like sawing barrels down on a shotgun, you alter from the norm, eg turn a rifle into a "pistol" version and which is over limit and therfore not acceptable.

[Korium]

I am sure that pistol grips could be put

Ironically pistol grips were actually available for it here, despite transforming the 2250 into a Sec.5 firearm. :rolleyes:
It's been several years since but I believe they were factory too.

The 2250/Ratcatcher now has a non removable stock. Screws have been replaced with a small cross bolt.
There were after all these years finally some concerns apparently (2007)...

[hayesman]

TwoTitans would be classed as an illicit modification

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
removing stock and fitting pistol grips would be classed as a modification and an illicit one, a bit like sawing barrels down on a shotgun, you alter from the norm, eg turn a rifle into a "pistol" version and which is over limit and therfore not acceptable.



No you got it wrong twotitans...i dont want to turn a rifle into a piustol its the other way round mate....

Korium Quote:
Originally Posted by hayesman
I am sure that pistol grips could be put

Ironically pistol grips were actually available for it here, despite transforming the 2250 into a Sec.5 firearm.
It's been several years since but I believe they were factory too.

The 2250/Ratcatcher now has a non removable stock. Screws have been replaced with a small cross bolt.
There were after all these years finally some concerns apparently (2007)...


It is a bit ironic that korium thanks for the heads up on that mate.....

[Target Bunny]

Hayesman WHY?
As a pistol you will have something which will be barrel heavy and constanty droop off aim. If you really must do it use the QB78 which only goes up to 6ft/lbs and has a wooden stock.

TwoTitans is spot on and if it is percieved that you are attempting to evade the 6ft/lbs rule plod will come down on you like a ton of bricks and a pistol with an excessively long barrel will attract attention. I have enough problems with the Smith & Wesson 686 when I'm not in the local area.

The problem you are up against is that if you go over the prescribed limits you no longer have an air weapon. You have a weapon licenceable under the firearms regulations. It makes no difference if that is the 12ft/lbs rule or the 6ft/lbs rule.
Now when I say no difference I am not being strictly accurate because a pistol over 6ft/lbs is a handgun and there is NO legal way to own a handgun in the UK. Your rifle conversion is still classed as a pistol by the manufacturer so it becomes a handgun.

The best thing you can do is to get a carbine of some description.
Or you could scratch build one. This is not illegal providing the power regulations are adhered too.
Target Bunny

[hayesman]

The best thing you can do is to get a carbine of some description.
Or you could scratch build one. This is not illegal providing the power regulations are adhered too.
Target Bunny



this seems the way forward i think mate....was only askin the question because the falcon pistol was going cheap my way......will very much look in to making one tho of some description...cheers any way for the comments...

[Target Bunny]

Hayesman
When you've done it post pictures.
Target Bunny

[Korium]

there is NO legal way to own a handgun in the UK.

Came across a 9mm Beretta 92 series recently, restricted capacity Sec.1 compliant. These do exist for humane dispatch but are something of a dead duck otherwise. I seem to remember being informed their one of the most awkward firearms to apply for, even more so than .410 shot pistols.

High powered air pistols were licensed in a similar vain at one time, but something has apparently changed there too. Again I've come across them on ticket in the past.

None of these are worth the effort in my opinion; their carefully restricted to one rather mundane chore.

[Snapshot]

there is NO legal way to own a handgun in the UK. Not quite true. You can get a two-shot revolver for humane dispatch if you're doing something like deer stalking that might require it. In theory you can get a two-shot semi-auto too but they're frowned on as the only difference is the magazine and it's easy to source a standard one from abroad.

Jonathan

[Target Bunny]

Snapshot
Thanks for the info, but I think you will find that these guns will be listed as "Humane Killers" or some such definition. it's all down to wording. As I said before you can get a "short barreled rifle" which is a long barreled pistol style gun with rearward extensions (usualy in the form of a counterballance for the extended barrel) which takes it over the minimum overall length for a handgun. So what you get is a long barrel pistol weighted and balanced to compensate for the barrel.
On a different tack you can actualy legaly buy and use an 1851 Colt Navy Carbine (Buntline Special to wild west fans) since it is a black powder revolver and these are deemed licencable (probably because of the restrictions imposed by use of black powder and the time it takes to reload). Replicas of these will cost around £150:00 from Henry Krank. http://www.henrykrank.com With a very deep pocket you could possibly get an orignal. You still need a FAC and additional storage for the black powder.

[Snapshot]

I know - I work for a section 5 RFD. :D

[Target Bunny]

Ah Ha!
So how is my interpretation of the act?
Aaaand now we know who to ask about the act.
Target Bunny