Barrel "Conditioning".

[u.k.neil]

I have lost count of the number of times I have seen shooters on a sighting in range with four or five different makes of pellets opened in front of them, taking five or so shots with each type and then saying that their gun is not grouping.

Whenever a brand of pellets is changed (sometimes even different batches of the same pellet) or if the barrel has been cleaned then the barrel has to be "conditioned" to that particular pellet by putting at least ten shots (I do 20 to be on the safe side) through it before trying a group.

Different brands of pellets have different percentages of elements in them which affect hardness, coefficient of friction, B.C's etc which all have an effect.

Just thought a "Heads-Up" on this subject might stop a bit of frustration....................:D

Neil

[manxteddy]

Yes good idea.
This can also be applied to .22 rimmy going from HV to Subs and different bullet coatings
Graham

[u.k.neil]

Yes good idea.
This can also be applied to .22 rimmy going from HV to Subs and different bullet coatings
Graham

That's what prompted me to post this..........:D

Yesterday I was using CCI subs which were grouping very well in my CZ452, with an air rifle shooter I had just introduced to my firearm club and he had become a probationary member. I then changed to Mini-Mags and the first ten shots were all over the place like a shotgun, shots 11 and 12 closed in on the P.O.A. and the next eight keyholed.

Neil

[Pod]

Had no problems yesterday swapping between JSB Heavy and Defiants - but both were lubed with the same oil :confused:

[Acid House]

I have a similar problem.

I normally use mozzies but when on a HFT course the AAs you find in the mud never perform the same.........especially the .22s...............:p:eek::rolleyes:

[MojoCrow]

Some barrels are better than others and some are more sensitive than others.

Some .22 rimfire match rifles have a cycle of cleanliness/dirtiness where the rifle performs at it's best after a certain number rounds have been put through the barrel. The accuracy can start to deteriorate and then it becomes neccessary to clean the barrel and start dirtying it up again until the accuracy returns.

Some barrels are more sensitive to dirt than others (i understand that .17 HMR, .17 Mach2 & .17 Remington are quite sensitive to barrel fouling and the accuracy can deteriorate after 25-35 shots). I have read about new barrels being 'conditioned' when new by routine of firing and cleaning. This is designed to remove and roughness in the rifling.

I've had one customer who was being driven nuts by an RWS Excalibre which was stupidly accurate when operating room clean but wouldn't group for toffee once it had the slightest spec of fouling. I suggested he should try lapping the barrel but i heard months later that he sold the rifle.

[MojoCrow]

but when on a HFT course the AAs you find in the mud never perform the same.........especially the .22s...............:p:eek::rolleyes:

Ahh, you must have found the pellets my Wilkins pouch sacrificed to the Buxted tree god's.:p:D

[Keith Oakes]

I've found my HW100 performs superbly with 16gr Logun Penetrators. I was shooting disc targets out to 40yds with deadly accuracy. I've always used H&N FTT but I really get on well with the Loguns. I haven't grouped it yet but I am going to sunday. I'm pretty sure I'll get good groups but the proof is in the pudding as they say........

I'll keep you posted

[Hsing-ee]

Is this true of springers as well as PCPs?

[verminhunter]

I have lost count of the number of times I have seen shooters on a sighting in range with four or five different makes of pellets opened in front of them, taking five or so shots with each type and then saying that their gun is not grouping.

Whenever a brand of pellets is changed (sometimes even different batches of the same pellet) or if the barrel has been cleaned then the barrel has to be "conditioned" to that particular pellet by putting at least ten shots (I do 20 to be on the safe side) through it before trying a group.

Different brands of pellets have different percentages of elements in them which affect hardness, coefficient of friction, B.C's etc which all have an effect.

Just thought a "Heads-Up" on this subject might stop a bit of frustration....................:D

Neil





Yes you are right neil, what i do and tell shooters if your going to change over a diffrent brand of pellets you must first clean the barrel nicely and properly then run several shots through it and then zero in. the reason to clean the barrel is to remove the tracks left behind from the privious pellet and the new pellet will make and leave its own.

But neil some mothers do 'ave 'em.:D

[u.k.neil]

Is this true of springers as well as PCPs?

I don't know the definitive answer to this, but it is true for PCP's and rimfires, so there is every chance it is the same for springers.

Neil

[Jon Budd]

Is this true of springers as well as PCPs?

Definately. I've a couple of highly tuned TXs that shoot like shotguns for the first dozen or so shots after a good barrel clean (which I never normally do for partly this reason), and takes another 20 to get really good again. With some particularly highly polished bores (career) it is far less pronounced. Polishing with JB can also help.

[BeerJam]

This thread saved me from going mad, thank you Neil.

I had done some tuning work on my .22 QB78DL and decided to shorten the barrel as well.

Previously this rifle had shot very respectable groups but after shortening and recrowning the barrel it was all over the place. I skimmed and recrowned three more times :o, and tried various different pellets, all to no avail.

Then I read this thread. I thoroughly cleaned the barrel (never, ever having been cleaned before :o). I even used the brass wire brush from a Bisley cleaning kit. The filth that came out was shocking. This was followed by pull through patches treated with Youngs "303" oil (just happened to be what the gunshop had in stock).

Next I put 20 RWS Superdomes through it before trying to zero.

I could not believe the difference. Better grouping than ever.

Thanks again Neil for some superb advice.

Cheers, Mark.

[u.k.neil]

This thread saved me from going mad, thank you Neil.

I had done some tuning work on my .22 QB78DL and decided to shorten the barrel as well.

Previously this rifle had shot very respectable groups but after shortening and recrowning the barrel it was all over the place. I skimmed and recrowned three more times :o, and tried various different pellets, all to no avail.

Then I read this thread. I thoroughly cleaned the barrel (never, ever having been cleaned before :o). I even used the brass wire brush from a Bisley cleaning kit. The filth that came out was shocking. This was followed by pull through patches treated with Youngs "303" oil (just happened to be what the gunshop had in stock).

Next I put 20 RWS Superdomes through it before trying to zero.

I could not believe the difference. Better grouping than ever.

Thanks again Neil for some superb advice.

Cheers, Mark.


Glad it helped mate.....:D

Neil

[Linnet67]

I have just, this morning, shot 3 different types of pellets. My Tau7 Co2 .177 pistol was stuck nicely into my workbench.

Shot outside at 10 metres


Pellets shot:
Match Kugeln
Match Finale
D/N Gecos, sized 4.51 & unsized (the unsized groups have probably done artificially well, as I didn't pick up one that needed a real thumb in, like they often do.

I shot one sort, shot the next etc without cleaning. Then I went thru them all again, cleaning the barrel just with a brass brush, between each sort.
The results (http://s499.photobucket.com/albums/rr360/linnet67/?action=view&current=BenchTest.jpg) speak from themselves!

By the way, I know you might think I need to shoot hundreds more here, to be scientific, but there's definately a pattern and I did shoot several sets of each, before and after, which I didn't include as they were pretty similar results - call this collection a summary.

THANKS NEIL:D

Any comments gang?
Linnet

[u.k.neil]

Well, I think these results speak for themselves, very graphic.......:D

What an improvement in grouping.

Neil

[Mike95]

The CZ factory handbook recommends barrel cleaning every 250 shots for the S200 and I assume all PCP's need regular cleaning presumably because of pellet build up? I nearly caused a riot at my club when I suggested barrel cleaning, but I must admit I have not cleaned barrels on any of my springers unless I am stripping them. I confess to sitting before a bench with six different brands of pellets and checking to see if the 50 year old Webley/BSA barrel will group better with one pellet than with another! One major problem we all know about is the 50 year old .22 barrel and the modern 5.5mm pellet...now I have to worry about barrel conditioning!


Many thanks for the tip..I will get out the cleaning pull tomorrow.

Mike95

[esseffb]

I have lost count of the number of times I have seen shooters on a sighting in range with four or five different makes of pellets opened in front of them, taking five or so shots with each type and then saying that their gun is not grouping.

Whenever a brand of pellets is changed (sometimes even different batches of the same pellet) or if the barrel has been cleaned then the barrel has to be "conditioned" to that particular pellet by putting at least ten shots (I do 20 to be on the safe side) through it before trying a group.

Different brands of pellets have different percentages of elements in them which affect hardness, coefficient of friction, B.C's etc which all have an effect.

Just thought a "Heads-Up" on this subject might stop a bit of frustration....................:D

Neil


might this also account for inconsistent chrono results until the barrel is conditioned to the new pellet then?:confused:

[u.k.neil]

might this also account for inconsistent chrono results until the barrel is conditioned to the new pellet then?:confused:

Could well do mate.

Neil

[punydan]

I was about to buy a pellpax sellection but if this is right then they are a waste of money as you only get 10 of each pellet.
Dan

[Sam.S]

Thanks for the tips :)

I cant get a descent grouping with my bsa lightning, maybe its down to this barrel conditioning malarkey that i'm missing.

[verminhunter]

Well yesterday I had a bit of a shock, on sunday i went shooting with the .25 rapid and did some tests of mine, i placed a 3/4" marine ply wood at 100yds to see what kind of damage it does to this very strong wood, i shot 3 time at the wood, the pellet nearly went through but not quiet but still not bad for 100yds and this wood is solid.

But what got me was my groups, they were around 3ins apart from each other , last time i did this with the same rifle they were all touching each other bit like a clover leaf shape(mind you it was windy). So I thought the barrel is due for a clean after firing 250 shots through it.At 50yds the pellets were nearly pellet on pellet but still i was'nt happy, so after a good hunt i went home and the following day decided to clean the barrel.

Took off the silencer, tilted the rifles down and pushed a wadded end of the rod with WD40, soaked the barrel but not right up to get iside the porting, about 4ins away from the end, got the pull throughs and also cleaned it that way too. I cleaned and cleaned until the barrel was spotless.

Fired the first 5 shots through, then went out to re zero after putting the silencer back, it was dreadful! like a shot gun, I went through the first mag no joy, 2nd mag no joy now uselly around 7 shots the rifle was back on song but this time it wernt having it. 3rd mag no joy, now I'am getting worried, 4th mag and only at the end did it start to tighten up , man was I frightened.

Filled back the bottle and gave it another 24 shots spot on. But the reason why iam posting this up is this. I phoned up Benny and UK neil and to my horror told me that over cleaning or too much cleaning can cause problems and may damage the barrel, the barrel needs its lead. The only reason i gave it a clean was to tighten up the groups but I should not have cleaned the barrel this way(never done it this way before mind you).

So from Ben Taylor and UK neil their advice is not to clean the barrel too much, just afew pull throughs just to remove any excess lead but even then the pellet will take it away. Ok so it does not do pellet on pellet at 100yds but as long as it places the pellets in a circle the size of a bunnies head thats where you want to be. Because thats where the barrel has setteled down and also not a good idea to do a long range shoot out when the weather is windy( silly boy).

So be warned lads dont over clean your barrel like I did, they dont need it and from what neil and ben were telling me more barrels are damaged by excess cleaning then anything else, just afew pull through patchs or better still the tips you put in roll ups bit like cleaning felts but ahell lot cheaper.
Happy Shooting.:)

[Sam.S]

So be warned lads dont over clean your barrel like I did, they dont need it and from what neil and ben were telling me more barrels are damaged by excess cleaning then anything else, just afew pull through patchs or better still the tips you put in roll ups bit like cleaning felts but ahell lot cheaper.
Happy Shooting.:)


I was also told dont over clean your barrel, especially with those cleaning rods, the one with the wire bristles in particular.

You mentioned using tips for roll ups to clean the barrel, do you shoot those through or just pull them through with something?


Cheers

[verminhunter]

I was also told dont over clean your barrel, especially with those cleaning rods, the one with the wire bristles in particular.

You mentioned using tips for roll ups to clean the barrel, do you shoot those through or just pull them through with something?

Cheers






Just shoot them through, 5-6 just enough to take off the excess lead.
Dont use the wire brush and rod can cause damage to the rifling.

[Sam.S]

Just shoot them through, 5-6 just enough to take off the excess lead.
Dont use the wire brush and rod can cause damage to the rifling.


Ah right. thanks for the info. I've tried firing some filters through my gun and it works a treat :)

[u.k.neil]

Hey Costas, you took my tip on the roll-up filters then............:D

Neil

[verminhunter]

Hey Costas, you took my tip on the roll-up filters then............:D

Neil







You aint half wrong neil, thank you for that neil, took your advice and went out and bought the large filter tips, blew 3 through and yes they do work.
this is what i'll do from now on, aint going through that again.:D
Cheers neil.;)

[cambrai1917]

I have lost count of the number of times I have seen shooters on a sighting in range with four or five different makes of pellets opened in front of them, taking five or so shots with each type and then saying that their gun is not grouping.

Whenever a brand of pellets is changed (sometimes even different batches of the same pellet) or if the barrel has been cleaned then the barrel has to be "conditioned" to that particular pellet by putting at least ten shots (I do 20 to be on the safe side) through it before trying a group.

Different brands of pellets have different percentages of elements in them which affect hardness, coefficient of friction, B.C's etc which all have an effect.

Just thought a "Heads-Up" on this subject might stop a bit of frustration....................:D

I
Neil
I've read much about barrel conditioning......all of it seemed great sense!
My Webley Omega .177 cal was producing very poor groups at all ranges. Was it me or was it the gun. I'm not the worlds greatest shot but surely I thought...............I can't be that bad!!
This afternoon I decided to clean the Omega's barrel.
With cleaning paste, coarse and medium felt pads & a wire pull through I began.
What a filthy state the felt pads were in after pulling them thru' the barrel!!
About 20 coarse followed by 15 medium pads were used to remove the "deposits" on the bore.
I finished off with a few pull-throughs of a recommended propriety teflon grease - just to 'line' the bore.
I used about 20-off AA 4.52 cal to condition the bore.

My groups were superb!

Only fired over 20 yards but managed 5 shots in a diameter of a 5p coin!!

I think I'll do my Webley Eclipse .22 cal next!!

Also I must remember to clean & condition the barrels after 200-300 shots.

Thanks UKneil

[ratgunner]

I go with Neil as for barrel conditioning 25 shots per per pellet type using the last five on a clean target and taking my results from this,

I am not a big scour the crap! out of any gun barrel Fan,

So I run a soft brass rod with an oiled mop a few times through the barrel of my springers after each use and then put a felt into the breech to stop any oil running back into the compression chamber to prevent dieseling,
then fire three pellets into the bank on the range the felt dries out the barrel and next two to make sure it's oilfree,

shoots consistently everytime,

PCP's

Refill gun with air, shoot through three dry felts (at an old carpet) fire one more with two drops gun oil on it, and insert dry felt,

At the range fire dry felt plus three pellets, away ya go,

Have learned a lot of this on here,

Great Thread Neil, saved a lot of lead and annoyance,

Hold The Zero Everyone.

[verminhunter]

Yes I vote this as one of the most useful threads for all air gunners.
Well done UK NEIL! even though you come from the black country.:D:D

[GERALD BUTLER]

Yes I vote this as one of the most useful threads for all air gunners.
Well done UK NEIL! if though you come from the black country.:D:D
Thank's Neil/Costas for the tip (excuse the pun) using the fag filters are the sizes suitable for .22 as I know you were refering to your elephant gun Costas :D Gerald.

[big_phil555]

Another thank you from me for UK Neil

I cleaned my barrel as the grouping went out the window - I used the pull throughs , then fired 25 pellets thru as a warm up

Then at 55 yards it gae me ragged one hole groups - well happy - thanks Neil :o

[Neomagic]

Just shoot them through, 5-6 just enough to take off the excess lead.
Dont use the wire brush and rod can cause damage to the rifling.

Just a cautionary note for any spring rifle owners......don't dry fire these filter tips, although they offer some resistance, you still need to put a pellet behind the filter tip prior to firing, or you risk serious damage to your gun.

I've used these filters for ages...only 70p for 100 :) and they work great with youngs 303 oil.

ATB,

Chris

[verminhunter]

Just a cautionary note for any spring rifle owners......don't dry fire these filter tips, although they offer some resistance, you still need to put a pellet behind the filter tip prior to firing, or you risk serious damage to your gun.

I've used these filters for ages...only 70p for 100 :) and they work great with youngs 303 oil.

ATB,

Chris





Yes you are right , filter tips are only for PCPs. Dont use them on springers/ gasrams lads as you may damage the internals of these rifles, use a pull through or if you have a brake barrel just open the barrel and push a rod through it(becareful with rods).

[biglad]

i clean my 177 rapid with fag filters it works a treat

[Graeme]

Yes you are right , filter tips are only for PCPs. Dont use them on springers/ gasrams lads as you may damage the internals of these rifles, use a pull through or if you have a brake barrel just open the barrel and push a rod through it(becareful with rods).

Maybe put a pellet behind the fag tip on a springer.. just a thought..

[bmhill]

on a brand new gun would you advise cleaning the barrel then start with a type of pellet and see if you get good groups?
or not bother to clean and go straight into conditioning?

i have heard people say at least a tin (500) of pellets to condition a new gun would this be a fair assumption(sp?)?

[Rapidnick]

on a brand new gun would you advise cleaning the barrel then start with a type of pellet and see if you get good groups?
or not bother to clean and go straight into conditioning?

i have heard people say at least a tin (500) of pellets to condition a new gun would this be a fair assumption(sp?)?

Depends entirely on its accuracy 'out of the box'. If OK with pellets you expect to work in that type of rifle then don't bother.. Although rifles need a lining of lead to 'condition' the barrel a full tin is rather a lot just for leading. However, springers do take a while for all the moving parts to bed in and for the rifle to reach optimum. I'd say up to 1000 shots to see what it really can do and get it shooting really sweetly.

[bmhill]

Depends entirely on its accuracy 'out of the box'. If OK with pellets you expect to work in that type of rifle then don't bother.. Although rifles need a lining of lead to 'condition' the barrel a full tin is rather a lot just for leading. However, springers do take a while for all the moving parts to bed in and for the rifle to reach optimum. I'd say up to 1000 shots to see what it really can do and get it shooting really sweetly.

thanks for the reply
its an airwolf mct

[REEVES]

You aint half wrong neil, thank you for that neil, took your advice and went out and bought the large filter tips, blew 3 through and yes they do work.
this is what i'll do from now on, aint going through that again.:D
Cheers neil.;)


And don't forget to take your awt of first Costas as them filters will remove your baffles as well as surplas lead ;);).

[verminhunter]

And don't forget to take your awt of first Costas as them filters will remove your baffles as well as surplas lead ;);).





:D:D
The filter tips reeves was for the .25 as its silencer is not like a awt, but I thought Id give thee old mfr a clean like the .25 and ended smashing the insides up. The mfr really reeves i usually take off the silencer and do a pull-through but saw it worked fine on the mk2 .25 id thought it would be fine for the mfr but it turned out it wasn't.

Once again reeves just would like to say a Big Thank-You for what you did for me reeves, true gentlemen mate and really appreciate it.

MFR is laser-guided accuracy:eek: I cant believe it my self, its been along time the mfr was messing around and accuracy was suffering , was never good as it was before and put it down to "too much cleaning" "barrel might be bent" "need to take it to Benny for a full service" allsorts. Then after that loud bang i just knew something was wrong, got on the blower to you, did a few findings and yes you were correct. Stuck the new AWT which is a vast improvement to the old ones and has transformed the rifle completely and i mean completely, very quiet and extremely accurate , thoughts bis mags are going on pellet on pellet at 60 yds with 1 mill dot, pellet on pellet at 50 yds cross hair, spot on.

That's how my rifle should perform and never ever in a million years would have thought the internals were swimming around every time i fired the rifle as it made no noise nor any indicating that there was something wrong until you told me what to do and look for.

Nice one Reeves top man ......and yes I will be taking off the silencer to clean from now on. Happy new Year Reeves and well done on the new AWT silencers they are extremely quiet and got to be one of the best silencers around.:)

[verminhunter]

Depends OK for all the moving parts to bed in really sweetly.






Get back to bed nickos, talking about your parts early in the morning honestly.:cool:
:D:D
Kalimera felleh mou.:)