12ft/lb limit, pellets – possible solution?

[Haje]

Having read various posts on the subject of power levels and pellet weights, may I suggest that there is a very simple way to stop the potential situation of air-rifles being over the 12ft/lb limit.

12ft/lbs is the absolute UK legal limit. What I’d suggest is that all UK Air-rifle Target Shooting Organizations should introduce a voluntary Gentleman’s agreement of a lower limit of say 10 – 10.5 ft/lbs so that no combination of pellet weight, fill pressure and ambient temperature will put a competitor’s rifle over the 12ft/lbs legal limit.

If all competitors are working from a level playing field, then I don’t see any problems once everybody has adjusted to the new trajectories for their rifle at the slightly lower power level.

As regards hunting with an air-rifle, is a rabbit really going to be able to tell the difference between a 10.5ft/lb or 11.5ft/lb shot?

I really don’t understand the people who want to own an air-rifle that is on the cusp of being an FAC rated weapon. I have a .22 Theoben MFR which was running at 11ft/lbs when I bought it. I have not had any need to alter it and I don’t have any desire to convert it to FAC, (which is still low powered compared to my proper rifles), rather it is just nice to have a rifle that I can plink with virtually anywhere or use for vermin without the added constraints associated with an FAC rated rifle.

[Big Mafoota]

, is a rabbit really going to be able to tell the difference between a 10.5ft/lb or 11.5ft/lb shot?

In a word, yes.

[Powderfinger]

My guns are springers. Even if I accepted the limit of 10FPE for competition how can I lower their poweer without running up considerable expense at the gunsmiths? The wording of the law on 12 FPE limit is the problem and it's not up to us shooters to have to bend over backwards because politicians and civil servants can't draft legislation.

[Hinksy]

As regards hunting with an air-rifle, is a rabbit really going to be able to tell the difference between a 10.5ft/lb or 11.5ft/lb shot?

apart from very close range rats, I would never hunt with a rifle shooting under 11fpe-possibly inhumane imo

[/QUOTE]

[electric sheep]

This argument amazes me, if it cant tell the difference between 11.5 and 10 then what about 10 and 8.5 then 8.5 and 7.... You cant make incrimental adjustments at arbitary points. The law stands at 12 and with so little power to start with it's humane to keep the power nearer the top end for hunting.

[Gwylan]

Sorry, but this just wouldn't work, 'cos of the millions of springers out there, including mine...!
This has been said many times before, but all the police, or the lawmakers, have to do is to declare a "British Standard Pellet." It doesn't matter if it's a JSB, BisMag, or Milbro, as long as everyone knows what it is, and can set their rifles with it. It would help the gunmakers emormously as well. Some set new rifles at 10-10.5, Weihrauchs are notoriously "hot."


Gus

[keeko]

The law stands at 12 and with so little power to start with it's humane to keep the power nearer the top end for hunting.
I agree with that. If its that much of a hot potato why don`t they market the guns unchanged and up the legal limit to 13ft lbs. Obviously not exactly viable though.
The whole nanny state thing bugs the crap out of most people. I don`t like the idea of a certain element or body making out everyone to be an idiot. A grown man could do more harm with a claw hammer or an axe than a 10ft lb airgun. Its human nature to want that extra bit more, supposing its a few more BHP from your car or a few extra quid in your wages. Obviously in a case such as the legal power an airgun can produce it HAS to be limited. Common sense has to prevail here and half a lbft of energy should be within reasonable excuse.
And before anyone comes out with the `12ftlbs Thats the Law` Think back, Have you ever broken the speed limit?

[Davey K]

As a hunter and not a target shooter, I want as much power as the law will allow me - If they would let me have more, I'd take it. As it is, the mid 11's in foot pounds is just about enough power to get the job done humanely at realisic ranges. But there are times I will not take a shot, that I could easily make, because (due to range) I don't want to hear my pellet strike home and then see my quarry fly/run off. I shoot on a small patch of land (less than 15cres) which has other farmland and livestock bordering it. So the world of rimfire, shotgun and centre fire is not really sensible for this type of environment.

I agree that lower powered rifles for shooting targets and for basic training are a good idea but hunters need the equipment that will do the job. Going through the full FAC processes to get an air rifle that will do more than 10ft lbs seems a bit excessive.

Perhaps there could be a new piece of licencing whereby genuine hunters could use air rifles in the 12-18 ft lb range after registering themselves and their weapons with the police and completing a proficiency test adminstered by their local gun club/RFD. This would register them as a hunter and give them a licence to shoot live prey. This would be a much easier process than FAC clearance but would still put the chavs off. FAC power limits could then apply to rifles over 20 ft lbs. Rifles under 10 ft lb would then be available to all in the way they are now but, if you were not a registered hunter, you could not legally use them to shoot live prey.

There would then be three different power brackets with 2 clear ft lbs between each, removing any close calls based on weather conditions, pellet weight etc. Putting a cost on qualifiying for the mid-range rifles would be a further deterrent to the wrong sort of people getting hold of these guns. After all, you don't see chavs running around with shotguns do you? The legislation works. If the gun clubs were brought in to administer the mid range process, it would bring much needed cash and employment into grass roots shooting.

Lets face it, most of you on here can tell pretty quickly if some one can handle themselves and if they have got the right temperament for hunting. Doesn't that make the people with the experience the best judges of who should be out there with the guns??

[Davey K]

Sorry, but this just wouldn't work, 'cos of the millions of springers out there, including mine...!
This has been said many times before, but all the police, or the lawmakers, have to do is to declare a "British Standard Pellet." It doesn't matter if it's a JSB, BisMag, or Milbro, as long as everyone knows what it is, and can set their rifles with it. It would help the gunmakers emormously as well. Some set new rifles at 10-10.5, Weihrauchs are notoriously "hot."


Gus

YES!

This would be the easiest thing by far - everyone sets their guns by 1 sort of pellet. Sure, manufacturers would then sell high efficiency pellets that would give you another 2ft lb but the police would have to live with that. 11.5 - 13 lbs does not make a harmless gun into a lethal weapon

[Rapidnick]

Sorry, but this just wouldn't work, 'cos of the millions of springers out there, including mine...!
This has been said many times before, but all the police, or the lawmakers, have to do is to declare a "British Standard Pellet." It doesn't matter if it's a JSB, BisMag, or Milbro, as long as everyone knows what it is, and can set their rifles with it. It would help the gunmakers emormously as well. Some set new rifles at 10-10.5, Weihrauchs are notoriously "hot."


Gus

Gus I understand your desire to regularise this but it just wouldn't be legal and therefore the results would be open to legal challenge. The Police cannot unilaterally decide that one pellet is legal and another isn't because the law clearly states 'capable of exceeding etc etc'. It would have to be Parliament and I suspect that they have neither the time nor the inclination. Also remember the reverse effect-springers go hot with pellets that make pcps go cool and vice versa.

[Forth]

I really don’t understand the people who want to own an air-rifle that is on the cusp of being an FAC rated weapon. I have a .22 Theoben MFR which was running at 11ft/lbs when I bought it. I have not had any need to alter it and I don’t have any desire to convert it to FAC, (which is still low powered compared to my proper rifles), rather it is just nice to have a rifle that I can plink with virtually anywhere or use for vermin without the added constraints associated with an FAC rated rifle.

As the appropriate government minister might be tempted to reply: I really don't understand why you want to own a "proper" rifle. As you most helpfully point out, 10 ft/lbs is perfectly adequate. The innocent have nothing to fear.

[Haje]

Thanks for the comments. I was only putting forward a few ideas.

Sorry, I’d forgot that people still use springers for competition shooting, which of course are more complicated to adjust than a PCP.

It does seem ridiculous having a recommended minimum hunting power of 11ft/lbs which is a mere 1ft/lbs short of the UK legal limit.

I do like Davey K’s idea….

If you had land to shoot over with written permission, then it would not be too big a task to issue some sort of permit for up to 20 – 25ft/lbs. In fact it might be an idea to cap current FAC hunting air-rifles to say a maximum 40ft/lbs and take them off the FAC system altogether.






.

[SNAKEBITE]

Good idea but impractical.
As for the rabbit not knowing the difference between 10.5 and 11.5lb then no it doesn't make a blind bit of difference does it?

if you have done your homework and know the P.O.I at different ranges then you are ready for hunting. What difference is 1lb going to make on distance.
Accuracy is what counts not power.
If you go to a gunsmith and get it serviced and tuned then sure have it set at the safest possible power but don't fret over it if you have just bought a rifle. Practice your aim points. Or practice your field craft if that extra 3' really matters to you

[Gwylan]

Gus I understand your desire to regularise this but it just wouldn't be legal and therefore the results would be open to legal challenge. The Police cannot unilaterally decide that one pellet is legal and another isn't because the law clearly states 'capable of exceeding etc etc'. It would have to be Parliament and I suspect that they have neither the time nor the inclination. Also remember the reverse effect-springers go hot with pellets that make pcps go cool and vice versa.

I see your point about legality Nick, but surely this is a case of a poorly written law, passed by people with no practical kowledge of the implications. The police must be as pissed off as we are, but as the law stands, they have to impliment it. I don't see what harm it would do if they could test a rifle with a known pellet first. The chav who turns his PCP up to 24fpe deserves all he gets, its us poor mugs who are terrified of being 0.5fpe over who are worried. Its got to the point where the BFTA have made a rule that rifles must be chronoed at 5fps below the max legal limit for the pellet they're using. You have to have a chart for JSBs, Prems, etc. People are being disqualified after driving across the country, passing the chrono before the shoot, then being disqualified part way through the course 'cos they have gone 1fps over. The whole thing is ridiculous, but as you say, "the law is the law," even though its an ass..!

Gus

[Born Again]

If we can't change the law then how about changing the penalties, to something like speeding.

12-13 = £50
13-14 = £150
14-15 = £250
15-17 = £250 + Gun destroyed
17+ = 5yrs

Just a thought.