Can you tell me about WW1 era BSA air rifles?

[felix gunner]

As well as an interest in old airguns my main passion is connected with the Great War - I am keen to buy a BSA air rifle from this era or in the preceding years (ie 1905 - 1918). Would this be the Improved Model 'D'? Were these used in any capacity for training at that time (cadets, boys clubs etc) either formally or informally?

How can I be sure of date, model and not get caught out with a 'bitsa?

Basically, any info/pics to help me learn these models much appreciated.



Interested in anything for sale too.

[mowerman]

Hi, you could get yourself a copy of:

'B.S.A. and Lincoln Jeffries Air Rifles: A Concise Illustrated History of their Development and Manufacture, 1904 - 1918'. (Hardcover) by John Knibbs.
ISBN-10:0951131702.
This is available at Ama*on for about £15.00.

Or John Knibbs International at www.Airgunspares.com

Hope this helps, Paul.

[Gareth W-B]

Or alternatively, contact this guy ...

Hi everybody, one of my mates is returning to Australia and cannot take his guns with him .

He has a 1906 (thanks for the date, Paddy_SP) BSA .177 No 1 to sell. I've photographed it and put it on a site here. I recently cocked it and shot it, and could at a push bung it through my Chrony, but I hardly think that's critical.

The gun appears to be complete, original and a bit scratched. I have done nothing to it for fear of spoiling the patina etc.

He's looking for £150 for the gun. I'm in North Gloucestershire, between Tewkesbury and Worcester, and would prefer a face to face meeting.

I'm not too good on detailing old guns, so please ask if you want further information. I'd love to keep it for myself, but don't have the cash just now!

Regards,

Martin

[Jersey Guy]

Hate to be a bore, but that's a 1920's gun. Still nice though.

Jim.

[Paddy_SP]

Hate to be a bore, but that's a 1920's gun. Still nice though.
Jim.

Yes, you're right - I was going by the J. Knibbs serial number index... According to Hiller, it's a 1920 model...

[felix gunner]

Thanks guys but can any of you experts actually tell me anything about them?!

What serial numbers, features, designs would identify a Model D from the era I am looking for - any history of their use in training? I believe there was a specific rare military model?

[Lakey]

The models you need would be the Improved model D pattern with serial numbers between 65000 and around 80000. Most had the double safety sear fitted so there should be an "S" in front of the serial number. Improved model D's were avalable in standard and light pattern and there was a junior model made for children/juniors.
The Military patterns were produced in vary small numbers up until the outbreak of the first world war, and were used by soldiers and cadets for training (as were the ordinary air rifles as well) Also some of the more wealthy public schools used the occasional military patterns for training.
What you really need(as the ultimate war training tool) is the gun laying teacher which was a rare variant of the improved model D. This was produced through the years of the first world war to train artilliary and naval gunners the rudiments of gun laying and other gun adjustments and was designed so that it could be used in the close confines of drill halls and courtyards instead of the gunnery range. These are very rare and I would not begin to know where you would get one from.The naval ones were set of using an electric solonoid and the one designed for ground artilliary were fire using a lanyard. They come fitted to their own mounting which is then fixed along side the big gun barrel.

Sometime during the great war BSA started photo etching details onto guns but the early ones had both stamped and photo etching together.

Once the war had finished BSA started to make a new model in both .22 and .177. These were the standards and the .22 was in long or sporting pattern and the .177 was in light or ladies pattern.

Hope that helps


Lakey

[silva]

Hello, Just my two pennoth worth on 1904 TO 1918 Bsa air rifles !

A quick first glance, rule of thumb is to look at the end of the cocking lever. All pre WW1 and WW1 era Bsa's will have either a cranked end or a sidecatch release on the end. All push button models are post WW1.

On all but the last sidecatch models, there will also be a cylinder inscription with the model either, "Bsa Air Rifle", "Improved model B", "Improved Model D".

There will be no prefix on the the serial numbers, except for a letter S after serial no. approx S 51530 - all these S prefix models will have a sidecatch cocking lever release.

The trigger adjustment will be a threaded bolt through the trigger guard. Though you will also encounter mid 1930's models with this feature, but these will have a serial no. prefix letter of either C, T or A.

The stock shape is also different, the post WW1 models up until the mid 1930'S have a rounded bottom to the pistol grip, where as the earlier models have a more distinct shape.

There are many other differences, including sights, stock stampings, loading taps, trigger guards, cocking levers etc, but the above info will be a fair indicator you are looking at the right rifle.

Bsa made a Military Pattern Air Rifle before the war. These were based on the . 303 Long Lee Enfield Rifle, which was still being issued to Territorials and and some regular army units before the First World War. There was also a model made, based on the SMLE, but possibly only 2 or three were ever manufactured.

These beautifully made trainers are rare, expensive and desirable - Especially by me and Lakey !!!

Your best bet is to get "Bsa and Lincoln Jeffries" by John Knibbs, you see it on E**y for about £15.00 and will be a sound investment.


Best Regards

[felix gunner]

Fantastic, thanks chaps. Just to ask also - what is a fair price for an average usable rifle as above (not mint collectors or anything just fair condition) and are spares/springs available or interchangeable?

[silva]

Hello Felix Gunner,

The prices tend to range from about £100 upwards for anything in half decent condition.

£150.00 in a private sale, should get you a nice .177 43.5 " long, pre WW1 shooting example, in good condition, with all parts, but with little original finish remaining.

£275/£350 should buy you a minty one, with most finish, in the more common 43.5 " and 39" long models.

However, there are always bargains to be found out there.

There still must be lots of undiscovered Bsa treasures tucked away, as 80,000 or so of these early Bsa's were manufactured up until 1918.

Always try and buy complete rifles unless v.cheap or rare models, as small parts like sights etc. are expensive.

Virtually all pattern parts and service parts can still be bought.

Best Regards

[NortonAMC]

quote.
.....Interested in anything for sale too......


Felix.

I have a later 1924 0.177 L prefix. Ladies or light model
new spring fitted but it has a parker hale front sight with a hood
that is not standard. £90 plus post.

can send pictures if interested.

Mike.

[felix gunner]

Thanks again. Mike, appreciate the offer but it's a bit late in period for me.

[sparko]

Hi, I have a B.S.A Improved model D Here, Serial No..21001 Completely original... Lincoln Jefferies stamped on the underlever, can any one date it, value it maybe?... The chap i bought it from used it for drill practice with the home guard here in Somerset.

[Ratbuster]

Here we go; serial # 20730 - 21229 July / Dec 1908 Period of manufacture / period of despatch Sept 1908 / May 1909 imp.mod "D"standard & light .177, .22, .250 light pattern


(Source "BSA & Linciln Jeffries Air Rifles by John Knibbs)

Don't know what it's worth, but others surely will know


Hans

[sparko]

Well, well, well, older than I thought, due a big birthday soon then, It is In .22 and shoots fine. I was told it had been wrapped in tarpaulin since 1945, and i was the first to fire it, 2 years ago... since it was put away. There must be a few of these still hiding somewhere. .. Thanks for your details well done. Mark.