Sale fell through-was I reasonable?

[kram245]

As already stated numerous times, Nick is trusted and respected on the board. However, trust comes from mutual respect. In a way, your saying trust me, however, i dont really trust you. On balance, even if someone who had been on the BBS for years asked me to send goods before they had sent payment, i would'nt do it. Thats not to say i have'nt sent stuff before funds have cleared, but that was my decision, based not really on number of posts, but on gut feeling from correspondance, or telephone conversations. ( although would'nt do it to someone who had just joined with half a dozen posts). My philosophy is, if someone send me a cheque, then asks me they would apreciate if i could send the goods out ASAP, I would'nt , until funds were cleared. However, if they did'nt ask, and they met the other criteria mentioned, I probably would! mark

[Rapidnick]

Thank you all for your contributions to this difficult topic.

To the member who would laugh at me if I asked for the goods first, I ask why? Assuming you want to do a genuine deal with me is there NO case for you to send the item on approval? Why not? My posting history is there for you to see.
Yours is not. It is NOT a reflection on your character or intention but a balance of risk nothing more. Remember the bbs is a 'club' not a purely commercial venture.

To those who say 'drive half way' I say for many things I would and do. I do however have a limit to the amount of time I want to spend driving and this particular item isn't really worth the effort to me.

To those who say there is nothing written in stone that says the buyer must pay first. I agree entirely-it is by agreement. The comparison is with a well known auction site which does have a fairly sophisticated trade monitoring service and a payments system which does offer at least some come back in the event of fraud.

The Bones effect. This is an entirely valid point and highlights a frightening event-the good member gone bad. A total nightmare I admit it freely. However, don't take this too far. Even in this case you had some evidence on which to base a judgement. What about cases where the seller has NO evidence to offer. It is as I have written many times 'a balance of risk.'
Also just look at the actual experience of this. The number of times a good member turned bad compared with the number of times a new member has come on and 'let down' other members. I think the answer will be exactly as you expect.

What makes the particular incident that provoked my original thread so difficult is that the member concerned is not NEW -he just doesn't post very much and when he does it is almost always on the sales section. I really have nothing against him at all. Nevertheless on a balance of probabilities I believe that if he wants to sell his item to ME he will have to trust me a bit more. It is a lot of money to lose and I point out again that to me this is NOT a theoretical risk: it HAS happened to me once and I am not keen for it to happen again.

[verminhunter]

Rapidnick.......Never 'erd of im.

[sniper-wolf]

I would agree with this sentiment, pay up front, goods on receipt. Posts are posts, whether one or several thousand, on the BBS it counts for sure, but posts and cash aren't equal currency. No matter how much we respect each other.

Tricky doing private sales, unless its face to face - hence why a particular auction site does well, as there is an insurance policy.

Always two sides to every story, if in doubt, do nowt.

Use a proxy, or even a deposit to secure etc.

Longbottom leaf, the best pipeweed in all of the shire

Surely that would be Old Toby. Sorry to go off topic.

Had a few long standing trusted members PM about a couple newbies who I knew. I vouched for them and the deal was done. This is a good way of finding out if a newbie can be trusted. I knew the newbies quite well and would trust them with anything of mine (apart from the missus). But this is not always possible, but does work if can be done that way.

[Rapidnick]

Rapidnick.......Never 'erd of im.

Thank you Costas for your valued and well-reasoned contribution.
You silly old bubble you!

[Woodie]

Why not ask for photo;s , if ok, then send payment. I certainly would not send anything without payment first unless the buyer lived very close.

[dbcrx]

If the item wasn't important enough to you to bother driving to collect it, then why go on about it? Just forget about it!

Personally I wouldn't have sent you the stuff either. I couldn't care less how many posts you have, I still don't know you. And even though your previous posts may show you in a good light, peoples circumstances change. You may have just lost your job and be desperate for money. Or someone could have "borrowed" your account, and so it may not be you I'd been dealing with.

At the end of the day, the norm is to pay and then get the goods. Therefore, anyone suggesting different just rings alarm bells to me.

I had a similar case a while ago on . A load of stuff I was selling didn't meet the reserve. One of the bidders made me a small offer saying he'd pay that, then once he'd recieved and inspected the goods he'd pay more up to whatever he thought it was all worth. Needless to say I told him where to stick his offer, which was a good job as when I relisted half of it, he won and proceeded to mess me around for a few weeks before paying!

[DJP]

Personally I wouldn't have sent you the stuff either. I couldn't care less how many posts you have, I still don't know you...

And the reverse applies - why should a buyer trust someone they don't know with several hundred quid?

That may well be the way that it's usually done - but it's also the way that people usually get ripped off.

I think that it's time that we did question this method of doing business: We're not talking a straightforward sale situation here, we're effectively talking about an (albeit short term) credit arrangement.

You wouldn't walk into a bank and expect them to advance you money without an established credit record. So why expect a complete stranger to do the same?

It's all about balance of probability: While anyone could default an established member with a proven record is a lot less likely to do so than a newbie.

It ain't rocket science.

[Charlts]

If it's an item you really want then drive to pick it up. I did a 400 mile round trip to buy an S400 carbine for the missus on Thursday night. I will only buy something like a gun or a scope face to face, its too important and too much money to risk it.

Last month I drove from Leicester to Cheltenam to pick up a rifle for my old man. He's really wanted one for ages and was made up to return from his hols with a good un.

I treat every private sale I do for anything as if buying a used car privately. If I don't like you or the way you want the deal to proceed I won't buy what you're selling.

I will however travel silly distances to get what I want and am very fair in the offers I make for kit.

Ryan

[stevie68]

And the reverse applies - why should a buyer trust someone they don't know with several hundred quid?

They dont need to.

They can pass on the item and let someone else who's willing to take that risk enjoy the benefit of a nice price secondhand item if the deal goes thru, or the hassle of a wild goose chase with a ripoff merchant if the deal goes south.

most 'newbies' tend to price items more attractively than established sellers precisely because they lack the usual credibility in the eyes of some. I dont see why they should have double hassle of a lower than average price and having to send first (which isnt just an established fleezbay principle its generally how all busines is conducted unless you've negotiated line of credit terms)

Suppose item isnt to 'buyers' liking? Is it a firm sale or some sort of pre-approval? Whats been suggested has potential to be a recipe for after the fact haggling of a tenner off here or twenty off there for what could be nothing more than invented faults - with seller stuck over a barrel either accepting that reduced price now offered by the person in possession of his item, or having the expense and delay of waiting for his item to be returned.

Sorry but bottom line - no reason for anyone to be offended if you ask, but likewise no reason to start a thread on it if they quite reasonably decline

[Rapidnick]

If the item wasn't important enough to you to bother driving to collect it, then why go on about it? Just forget about it!

Personally I wouldn't have sent you the stuff either. I couldn't care less how many posts you have, I still don't know you. And even though your previous posts may show you in a good light, peoples circumstances change. You may have just lost your job and be desperate for money. Or someone could have "borrowed" your account, and so it may not be you I'd been dealing with.

At the end of the day, the norm is to pay and then get the goods. Therefore, anyone suggesting different just rings alarm bells to me.

I had a similar case a while ago on . A load of stuff I was selling didn't meet the reserve. One of the bidders made me a small offer saying he'd pay that, then once he'd recieved and inspected the goods he'd pay more up to whatever he thought it was all worth. Needless to say I told him where to stick his offer, which was a good job as when I relisted half of it, he won and proceeded to mess me around for a few weeks before paying!

I'm 'going on about it' purely because it is of GENERAL interest as to how sales are conducted on the bbs. You obviously feel it worthwhile to post your comments too-that is what the bbs is all about after all.
Your point about not knowing me and not wanting to trust me is fine. However you have made a couple of factual errors in your post which if I may I would like to point out..
1.When buying and selling, the NORM is for a person to inspect the goods and then pay and take them away. Afer all that is what happens in a shop which still accounts for the vast bulk of transactions where people exchange money for goods.
2. In the case of mail order sales most trades are done with credit cards which offer pretty comprehensive buyer protection. This does not exist on the bbs.
3. Sadly there IS a definite correlation between number of posts on the bbs and the reliability as a party to a trade. If you deny this then I think you are simply wrong and invite you to do a search for information on this. In fact were it not for Bones, the track record of old established v newcomers would be incredibly high. Just do a search-some members on here feel there should be a fairly high hurdle put up before a member is allowed to use the sales section anyway.
As to your own experience I fully understand your reluctance to trust anyone.
However as one final point the bbs is NOT a commercial venture, it is a CLUB and in most clubs older-established members normally do get trusted a little bit more than newcomers. It really is as simple as that.

[Rapidnick]

They dont need to.

They can pass on the item and let someone else who's willing to take that risk enjoy the benefit of a nice price secondhand item if the deal goes thru, or the hassle of a wild goose chase with a ripoff merchant if the deal goes south.

most 'newbies' tend to price items more attractively than established sellers precisely because they lack the usual credibility in the eyes of some. I dont see why they should have double hassle of a lower than average price and having to send first (which isnt just an established fleezbay principle its generally how all busines is conducted unless you've negotiated line of credit terms)

Suppose item isnt to 'buyers' liking? Is it a firm sale or some sort of pre-approval? Whats been suggested has potential to be a recipe for after the fact haggling of a tenner off here or twenty off there for what could be nothing more than invented faults - with seller stuck over a barrel either accepting that reduced price now offered by the person in possession of his item, or having the expense and delay of waiting for his item to be returned.

Sorry but bottom line - no reason for anyone to be offended if you ask, but likewise no reason to start a thread on it if they quite reasonably decline

What evidence do you have for your assertion that newbies price goods more attractively than older established members? My experience is exactly the reverse and that newcomers are unbelievably optimistic as to what their gear will fetch.

As to your excellent point about using it as an 'opportunity to chisel' this I agree is entirely wrong. That is why whenever I have received items on approval-a surprising number in fact- the agreement has been that I will either pay in full immediately OR return the item at my expense. Definitely no chiselling allowed.
Incidentally I have NEVER felt it necessary to return an item sent to me first.

[gjduk]

I think this has been discussed before, and I think Gary C or some else said they would do an escrow service, but I have used this one like before and it helps when you are dealing with people you do not know

http://www.pppay.com/

it does not cost much and will allow in situations such as this one, to let both parties to know that they have someone holding the money before goods are sent, so they can see that the funds are there. And also the buyer knows that if they do not recieve the goods that there money is safe.

Just an idea

[dbcrx]

1.When buying and selling, the NORM is for a person to inspect the goods and then pay and take them away. Afer all that is what happens in a shop which still accounts for the vast bulk of transactions where people exchange money for goods.

Yes, but this isn't a shop. It's basically an online transaction. You don't get to see the goods before buying anything else online. And as I said the NORM for buying on forums is to pay first, it's the same on evry forum I've ever used.

2. In the case of mail order sales most trades are done with credit cards which offer pretty comprehensive buyer protection. This does not exist on the bbs.

So use your credit card and pay through paypal.

[LESS THAN FORTUITOUS KENNETH]

Generally, I'd say pay first every time. I only sent the goods first once. The goods wern't mine, I was selling for a friend who agreed to send goods first. I sent them to a bloke called Gary C. Bit of a dodgy bugger by all accounts, but he paid by bank transfer within minutes of getting the goods.

I usually only do business face to face for larger more expensive stuff. Only sent a gun by post once because it was too far to even meet halfway.