Cautionary Tale (or free targets with strings)

[Target Bunny]

Hi Everyone
A little while ago I notified folks on the bulletin board that I had set up Target Bunny to provide a focus for free targets to download.
I collected targets from many sources and have put them on line as pdf files. Obviously some of these targets belong to the creator and so I have quite openly stated that as there are no fees for these targets the originators will be credited. Also if there is any objection to them being on www.targetbunny.btik.com then I will remove them.
So far so good, BUT, the other day I found out that some of the targets I had uploaded to the site came from this guy, Thomas Haller (tphaller@compuserve.com) and I sent him an email telling him that I had put his targets on the site. His reply is below, it is a masterpiece of understated and gentle reprimand.

Re: Targets on my Site
From: Thomas Haller (tphaller@compuserve.com)
Sent: 13 November 2007 03:02:30
To: James.D Driver (thetargetbunny@hotmail.co.uk)

Dear Mr. Driver,


Please remove any of my material from your site, immediately.


My targets are copyright protected, and it sounds like you have already broken the law.


My lawyer will be checking your site tomorrow, and if any of my material is there, you will be sued for copyright infringement.


Thomas Haller

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...ler/page3.html


Remember that this is from a guy who has the following banner on his blog,

Free Homemade Targets
( Bullseye - Silhouette - Real Picture )

Print These Targets Directly From Your Browser!
Or Save Them To Your Hard Disk For Later Use!

Now Available in PDF Format!! No More "Print too large" problems!!
All of these targets are designed to print on a normal 8.5 x 11 inch piece of paper. Simply click on the preview picture to get the full size target in PDF or JPEG format. Once it has been displayed, use the "Print" function of your Acrobat or Browser program, and print your own! It's just that easy!
If these targets try to print on more than one page, just look in the menus of your Acrobat software or Web Browser for something like Page Setup, or Document Format, or Print Options, and look for a command like "Fit to Page". You may also find this option in the dialog that appears when you issue a Print command from your copy of Adobe Acrobat or your Web Browser.
Folks without color printer should not despair, I provide some "greyscale" targets, and some of the color targets print just fine in black and white!
You can also use your Browser's "Save" command, to download a copy to your hard disk for later!
If you have any trouble with these targets, just let me know and I'll try my best to help!


So if you want to tell him what you think of his caring and sensitive attitude be my guest and if you feel that you want any of his drawn targets on Target Bunny let me know and I will get Dragonsinger to redo them in AUTOCad and since they will be HIS drawings not Mr Hallers there can be no copyright problems.

Regards,
Target Bunny

[Photoguy2910]

Actually he is in the right, if he developed them and then decided to offer them to peploe then thats upto him. He has said they are free to download and use, he hasn't said that anyone can put them on their own site (even if you do say who did them.

You might have got a better response if you had asked him before adding them.

I know I'm not happy if this happens with one of my pictures, ask first and you will usually get a different response.

Just my view.

[biggles]

Dunno.

I'm no lawyer nor copyright adviser, so perhaps someone better informed/learned can add/correct this, but ......

..... as his web site has no (repeat, NO/ZIP/ZERO/NADA) mention, IN ANY FORM, of the material's ownership, or of copyright, and not even a request that as the images 'belong' to him others wishing to use/publish elsewhere should ask, then I'm not at all sure he has a case.

The only mention of rights is his granting those for anyone to download, store, print all and as many as they want.

Biggles

[RobF]

many dont understand copyright.

you can copyright something in the public domain, that prevents others from using it without your copyright and if you give away certain rights, others still remain.

Publishing rights however are not given away even when something is public domain, you can't republish something even if you heard, saw, was given works etc something in public. In the UK publishing and copyright automatically stays with the originator of the works.

So, given yours and his position, i personally would reply with an apology, remove the items from your site and quite clearly and firmly suggest that if he is so up tight about it then he should state clearly on his site how his works can be treated.

you then have 2 options

1) you can just link to his site for those targets

2) you can create derivative works from his work. What is derivative is defined by a judge when it goes to court, so it's not something i'd advise to smooth over the waters. The item you copy has to be in the public domain, and you have to have been deemed to have done enough work to make your work original even though it is derivative.

An example of the above is my girlfriend who creates miniature oil masters from copyrighted works of the great painters. She does this with the full knowledge and permissions of the museums.

Another is the Turner prize, where a fairly unknown sci-fi book cover was repainted large and even though it was again a direct rip-off in intellectual terms it was deemed derivative, and indeed won.

We have successfully warned off companies for downloading images from our company website and trying to use them for their purposes. This is because the work wasn't derivative or recreated, and because many do not know the law regarding copy and publishing rights.

Personally, i would just link to his site...if you so wish, but i can understand why you wouldnt bother But with the way he has his setup you could link almost invisibly directly to his works (which no-where insist that you cannot redistribute his works, but that doesn't in his defence mean you can) (this latter point has been proven by newspapers who force search engines to remove their copyrighted stories from within their search caches when the original page expires)

[Target Bunny]

Hi all
I fully agree with this persons right to not wish the targets to appear on Targetbunny. It was the confrontational attitude which got right up my nose. After all, I could have left the stuff on there untill he contacted me. Even then, it is his stuff, so I DO respect his right to say where it can, or can not, be exhibited.
It just comes over as strange that you set up a blog to show off your work then moan when someone offers an alternative forum for it.
There is also the fact that I picked up his targets, Game Silhouetes, from another site with no credits on them and as soon as I find it again I will replace the removed targets and show credits to the site they came from.

A lot of the stuff on Targetbunny came from files I have personaly collected over a long period and I have no idea where it originated from. For that reason there is a standing commitment to remove anything complained about. This guy got upset when I let him know and proceeded to get heavy. This was totally unecessary since I was contacting him to seek his authority or his refusal. There are plenty of other targets out there and we should have fun potting them.

Thanks for the comments and instruction in copyright law.
Regards
Target Bunny

[RobF]

indeed...i think it's a little heavy handed !

apolgies if it came across this way, i didnt mean to lecture, only to clarify. The simple rule is that unless something expressly says it gives you rights to copy, in the UK it doesn't.

linking to however doesn't infringe that copyright.

i would personally avoid though publishing emails etc that someone considers private though.

keep up with the fun

[Zico]

While he may be correct there is no need for that attitude from him.. he sounds a right tw4t, imagine having him as a next door neighbour.

[nice one]

child like

[derekm]

Just sent him this, shooting from the verbal hip, as is my unfortunate manner! Hope it doesn't tread on toes (apart from his!).

"You may well be technically correct from a legal point of view, but you yourself offer the targets for free download, TB did not attempt to claim them as his own work and he credited you as the source. Reading your beligerant reply, it would seem to me that you have some sort of attitude problem. Your anger would possibly be better utilised against the powers that be who are slowly trying to stifle our sport, after the possible demise of which, your targets will be useless to yourself or anyone else.

I have no connection with TB. I am simply an airgun enthusiast who cannot see the point of petty squabbles when there are more important issues at hand."

[Target Bunny]

Hi RobF
The thanks were (are?) genuine since it is important to get things right and knowledge is valuable so gather it and use it where you can.
So far as private thought goes, is a warning a private thing? Let's be honest a warning is issued to prevent a specific action from happening and it is pointless if done in such a way as to be unknown by persons liable to do the action warned against. Legal action normally takes place in open court, with the emphasis on the open, therefore the threat of legal action can hardly be considered to be a private thing.

As far as the actual targets go Mr Haller is entitled to claim them as his and some of them are rather good. Unfortunately even I could make something similar now that I have seen them. I asked Dragonsinger (he has several targets on the site) how difficult they were and his reply was that technically the are fairly simple and to produce a version which is based on the shapes and reverses the colours would avoid copyright with pretty much the same look and style.
I will not ask him to do this as that would be issuing a stupid challenge. I think it will be better to put a links page on the site so that the rest of the world can make up their own mind.
Regards
Target Bunny

[mattinlondon]

The guy is certainly a tw4t

I had a simalair experience a few years ago

Basically I found a good DIY write up on a certain car servicing method

I copied the detials and posted it on my website so other DIYers could gain benefit from it

I didnt pretend it was mine, charge people for it ar gain anything from it

I got the same email as Traget Bunny, dont you just love those Yanks!

Anyhow, bottom line was I ignored it, he sent 3 more emails, all ignored, and finally he gave up

My point is why the f00k post anything on the web if you dont want people to use, read or look at it!!

[figjam]

The guy is certainly a tw4t

I had a simalair experience a few years ago

Basically I found a good DIY write up on a certain car servicing method

I copied the detials and posted it on my website so other DIYers could gain benefit from it

I didnt pretend it was mine, charge people for it ar gain anything from it

I got the same email as Traget Bunny, dont you just love those Yanks!

Anyhow, bottom line was I ignored it, he sent 3 more emails, all ignored, and finally he gave up

My point is why the f00k post anything on the web if you dont want people to use, read or look at it!!

here, here mate, well said!

Rgds
kenny