hammerli mod 420 whats it worth?

[t1mm]

As the title says. Its the military looking one in very good nick. I may make an offer on it it depends what you guys think. It is up for sale at £195

[Hsing-ee]

The 420 Military Stock rifles are in short supply, so while you CAN buy one for about half that (they come up every four years or so...), it would be from a person who didn't know its value and was just selling it off as 'an old airgun'. Probably less than 100 were sold in the UK, and there was more than one stock style. Collectors don't seem to have got THAT interested in Hammerlis, although they were one of the best mid-priced rifles available in the 1970s, astonishingly accurate with superb triggers.

I would buy one for £195 if it was in excellent condition, no problem. In fact I want to buy the one you are talking about!

Apart from that, they are extremely accurate and sweet-shooting rifles, if you are actually going to use it. I would get it and treat it well. Beware the enormous spring they have, the longest of any springer I know of (15").

[Kingplinker]

I take it this is one ?

Has to look of a AA Jackal to me , never seen one before myself !

Dave

[Hsing-ee]

The Hammerli 420 was extant BEFORE the Sussex Armoury/NSP Engineering/Air Arms developed the Jackal series.

Some people believe that the design was copied, albeit in a crude way, and beefed-up to produce the Jackal series, which was the first new range of British springers for about 30 years. They realised the simple genius of the Hammerli design but were interested in power, not accuracy. While a Hammerli could hit a 5p piece at 25 yards, the Jackal couldn't but it could go through a 1" deal plank at 1 yard. With the pellets of the time, a Hammerli could group into about 1/2" at 25 yards while a Jackal was doing about 1+1/2" and making a big noise about it.

The Hammerli barrels are superbly rifled, but also have quite tight chokes on them. These made them quite insensitive to pellets and would give good accuracy with whatever you fired through them (and by Heaven there were alot of useless pellets for sale in the 1970s) but which cut the power by about 1 ft/lb.

They have very tightly fitted spring-guides, something eventually taken up by Venom and Air Arms, and very long springs with a stupendous amount of pre-load on them. Very interesting, overlooked rifles, the Hammerlis. the trigger mechanism has very long levers and is as good as a Rekord, but made of stamped parts. the small swept volume of the chamber meant that 10.5 ft/lbs was the absolute peak of tuned Hammerli power, and that was in .22 calibre. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, power was all people cared about (they didnt have chronos), and if a rifle didnt do '11.9 ft lbs' it was not worth bothering with. Thus the Hammerlis, which did about 9 ft/lbs, died a death whereas tat like the Webley Vulcan sold by the thousand.

But in historical terms it gave birth to the AATX200 series. Its the TX200's great great grandmother. So there is the sense in it.

[yoshiwolves]

i would say thats a good price if its as good con as you say, they are very rare, airgun world march 1980 did a group test with the jackals and the 420, they were imported by norman may who also at the time imported the wierauch and bsf range, also airgun world april 1980 ran a feature "airgun workshop" showing how to strip the hammerli range,
best regards
paul

[silva]

I sold one of the later models instantly on here in good condition, complete but missing its sights for about £40.00 which was what it cost me. I had been hoping for a Jackel from the chap I originally bought it off's description !
A German collector offered me about £120.00 the next day, so they must be quite desirable in Europe as well - this taught me not to price surplus collectable airguns, purely on the amount of oil finished walnut and hand fitted deep blued parts ! Still it was nice to own such a rare air rifle, it went to a appreciative home and to be honest I'm mostly interested in Bsa's.
The wooden stocked sporter models with the same action crop up now and then, sometimes at bargain prices.
I think £195.00 for an excellent example is a fair price, say the same as for a minty Airsporter "S" or Jackel and if you can bargain a little, all well and good.
I'm sure it would probably be a better investment £'s wise than the above two rifles as well.

Cheers Morgan

[Hsing-ee]

I sold one of the later models on here in good condition, complete but missing its sights for about £40.00 instantly.
A German collector offered me about £110.00, the next day, so they must be quite desirable in Europe as well.

Cheers Morgan

That must have been Dr Koenig. He is the keenest collector of military-style air-rifles in the world.

He is extremely keen to find the elusive Hammerli Model 42a, which has only ever been mentioned in Walther's Airgun Book, and which may actually be a typographical error rather than a real gun.

I was going to make an AR-15 style rifle from a BSA Meteor and some parts from y-bay to sell to him as the 'Limehouse Widowmaker' but he said he was not interested as I was not an established firm.

Fair enough.

[silva]

Hi Hsing-ee,
Don't think it was Dr Koenig, as having watched the film, I would have definately remembered that user name !
Always fancied a skeleton stocked meteor though !

Cheers Morgan

[t1mm]

well thats made my mind up then i will buy it off him tom morning.

[I. J.]

I have a Model 400 (Puma?) but I cant say Im keen on using it as there is no anti-bear trap on the side lever. Its a delicate balance cocking the rifle and keeping a tight hold on the lever while at the same time turning the loading port tap which is a round knob. Not the best of designs.

ATB
Ian

[Hsing-ee]

I have a Model 400 (Puma?) but I cant say Im keen on using it as there is no anti-bear trap on the side lever. Its a delicate balance cocking the rifle and keeping a tight hold on the lever while at the same time turning the loading port tap which is a round knob. Not the best of designs.

ATB
Ian

The Puma was the 1960s forerunner of the 400 series. The Hammerli Model 3, model 4 and the 400 series including the model 420 Military stock all have very efficient ratchet-stop anti-beartrap mechanisms fitted. Unlike my early HW77K, which has none at all, and which has far greater finger-smashing capabilities than the Puma!

[I. J.]

Strangely enough I removed the ant-bear trap on my HW77 as its only a sear lock and nothing is better than safe gun handling. I also have a TX200 mark 1 without an anti-bear trap and dont miss it. Although the 400 hasn't given me any cause for concern I'm just dubious of that sharp side lever. The rifle in itself is sweet enough to shoot although I dont like the rotary knob for opening the loading tap when you have cold fingers.

ATB
Ian

[coburn]

Excellent info from Hsing-ee, I remember the Hammerli series being championed by Fred Grimwade in Airgun World in the late 70's. You could call it the thinking mans Osprey. Have a look on Micks Guns website he's got a 401 with dioptere sights for £225.

[Hsing-ee]

The rifle in itself is sweet enough to shoot although I dont like the rotary knob for opening the loading tap when you have cold fingers.

ATB
Ian

When I used my 401 for timed events I found I could reload it faster than most people could reload their break-barrels. There is a technique to opening the tap, which is not to turn it like twisting a knob, but to apply pressure with the thumb in a forward and slightly downward direction, this causes it to snap open. Its a bit like the action of popping a bottle top off a bottle. And it works fine in cold weather! I think they were trying to keep the costs down, hence the knurled tap rather than a lever, and the use of rather ugly stampings for the trigger-guard.

atb

Alistair

[Pad. E]

Hello Morgan.

I sold one of the later models instantly on here in good condition, complete but missing its sights for about £40.00 which was what it cost me. I had been hoping for a Jackel from the chap I originally bought it off's description !
A German collector offered me about £120.00 the next day,

I remember that <<THREAD>> I missed out on that one The stock on that one did look more like a Jackal rather than an original Hammerli.

Hi Hsing-ee,
Don't think it was Dr Koenig, as having watched the film, I would have definately remembered that user name !
Always fancied a skeleton stocked meteor though !

Cheers Morgan

Hsing-ee is right about Dr Konig, As for a Skeleton stock Meteor; will <<THIS>> do?

I'm tempted to get one

Regards
Paddy.