Brass frame or Steel frame

[LONG REACH]

Hiya Folks, I've recently become interested in muzzle loader shooting and theres something that's been bothering me. There seems to be a definate division between those who shoot brass framed revolvers and those who shoot steel, in that the brass shooters say there's nothing wrong with having a brass frame and the steel shooters, say they're not as safe as having a steel frame. I agree that steel is stronger than brass, but surely, the pistol frame must be made to a standard, where it will be safe to shoot throughout the life of the pistol, shouldn't it ???
Or is it a case of, "I've got a steel framed pistol and you only have a cheap brass framed one"

Personally I like the look of the brass frame, but some of the comments I've read on various web sites have got me thinking about the safety aspect of shooting one. Plus there's the other question of, one piece frame and open frame, ie, Remmington & Colt, can anyone enlighten me of any differences in accuracy and parts longevity etc.

This muzzle loading business is very confusing, but VERY interesting and I'm off for my 1st visit to a club near where I live (thanks to harricook and others for pointing me in the right direction ) tomorrow to have a look around and see about joining (and hopefully get to shoot a few rounds from an ML pistol)

Any help with my questions will be very much appreciated !!!

All the best
Baz

[john paul]

The general opinion is that the brass framed pistols are weaker as you say, likely after use it will loosen more than a steel/stainless i.e. cylinder I would suspect won't lock up as tight. However probably if you use a light load a brass framed pistol will be OK for a fair amount of use.
Although I like many of the brass models I have left them alone and opted for steel Colt 1861 and a stainless Remmie.
If you like a certain model with a brass frame go for it and just be careful with your loads. Note brass framed pistols s/hand seem to lose their value faster than a steel model.
If you want accuracy for your first B/P pistol I would go for a target version i.e. Remington 58 with target sights and ideally in stainless. You may find with the Colt clones and Remmie clones without the sights you will have to aim off either left or right - not a problem once your used to it. I was lucky with my Colt its spot on, I was advised to go for stainless and target sights, and glad I did. The stainless will always look good and hold its value.
I've seen lots of people buy a b/p pistol eg. Colt shoot it for a few weeks and get frustrated with the accuracy and sell it.
Well that's my ramble over..

[LONG REACH]

Hi JP, thank you for your reply, it seems to confirm what I've read on various sites, but it's nice to hear it first hand . I was thinking of getting (once I get my FAC) a .36 Colt Navy and a .44 Remmington New Model Army, mainly because I like the look of them (I also like the Walker Colt,but can't afford the gym membership to build up the muscles I would need to hold and shoot it )
I'm not really bothered about having a target model with adjustable sights, as I'm quite used to aiming off, as a Browning 9mm Hi Power hasn't got adjustable sights and I used one quite a lot while doing my time in the Army
and anyway, I like a challenge
There is a hell of a lot of stuff you need to learn to shoot muzzle loaders, I never realised it was so involved, which I must admit I would enjoy more. As when I was shooting with cartridge pistols, everything was very clinical, ie, load your cartridges into the cylinder, or magazine, shoot at your targets, (get laughed at by your mates and scowled at by the range officer )
Pick up your brass, give your weapon a quick pull through and put it away in the armoury. With ML's, there's so much more to do, which suits me down to the ground
I hope everything turns out OK tomorrow, when we go for our 1st visit to the club, then it's the usual 6 month probation, then apply for my FAC.

Thanks again JP, it was very helpful. I doubt if I would be shooting heavy loads anyway, as age and 14 yrs in the Army are taking their toll on my poor old bod

p.s. I will probably go for steel frames, just to be on the safe side and in case I fancy making lots of noise & smoke !!!

All the best
Baz

[tony1975]

my first (and current) BP revolver is a pietta remmy 1858 new model army, in stainless with target sights, in my opinion its the perfect starter

there are many ways that you can make things easier and almost clinical when shooting BP

I actually enjoy the stripping and cleaning part, but its not as bad as I expected

I have loads of plastic phialls that fit perfectly into the cylinders, fill the phialls at home with desired load, so with the cylinder out I invert and push the phiall into the chamber, once all 6 are in place remove 1 at a time and fit the fibre wad, the wad helps prevent any loss of powder if you knock the chamber over, not its only use

doing it this way I have avoided leaving a chamber empty, ( I have seen far more experienced people than me do this)

its great fun and I enjoy it as Im crap at it and that annoys me, so pushing me to learn better techniques and practice more

[john paul]

I was in the same boat a few years ago and thought there seemed a lot to B/P pistol shooting, however once you get yourself a pistol and start shooting it and experimenting i.e; making your own wads, concoctions to coat the wads, using TREX over the balls, measuring out your powder by weight rather than volume, using a filler eg semolina etc... Really straightforward HONEST. You'll find you will want to experiment and soon find what works best for you.
Oh get yourself a mould and make your own balls, you soon get back your initial payout. Mould about £19, laddle £3, melting pot about £5 and a camping stove.
If you can have a go of a Sheriff version of the Navy you will find it points well and feels more like a conventional pistol. My 61 Navy .36 is the Sheriff version and its very sweet to shoot.

[Jim McArthur]

my first (and current) BP revolver is a pietta remmy 1858 new model army, in stainless with target sights, in my opinion its the perfect starter

there are many ways that you can make things easier and almost clinical when shooting BP

I actually enjoy the stripping and cleaning part, but its not as bad as I expected

I have loads of plastic phialls that fit perfectly into the cylinders, fill the phialls at home with desired load, so with the cylinder out I invert and push the phiall into the chamber, once all 6 are in place remove 1 at a time and fit the fibre wad, the wad helps prevent any loss of powder if you knock the chamber over, not its only use

doing it this way I have avoided leaving a chamber empty, ( I have seen far more experienced people than me do this)

its great fun and I enjoy it as Im crap at it and that annoys me, so pushing me to learn better techniques and practice more

I have a second-hand Uberti stainless Remington 1858 on order, Tony.

Jim

[LONG REACH]

Thanks for the replies fella's, I especially like all of the little tips etc. I had read about the use of semolina, ground rice and corn etc, being used as a spacer to bring the ball forward and the Trex, to seal the end of each chamber.
I've just been on the HODGDON website getting info on Pyrodex and 777, very good site, with loads of info, as in, I didn't know you could get Pyrodex pellets for pistols (.44 cal), that would make loading quicker and easier
Thanks again guy's, I really appreciate all of these little pearls of wisdom, when added together,makes very interesting reading.

JP, I have already priced up all of the gear needed for making my own ammunition. By the way, has anyone tried connical rounds, instead of plain balls ?

All the best
Baz

[Smokeless Coal]

Steel is gonna last longer than brass which get very sloppy in a short time.

I use conicals most of the time, it saves using a wad and the risk of flashover must be a lot less. Saying that I find balls are a lot more accurate, most of my shooting is just for the grin factor. When I am having an accurate shooting session the ball wins hands down.

Simplest load is 777 and a conical prelubed with alox. Fussier load is 777 precision measured, filler plus a lubed wad and a ball (matched weights) again with alox.

[john paul]

I don't think you can get Pyrodex Pellets in the UK. Do you mean a ball in a wrap with powder? Now I discovered a thread on an American site some time ago that illustrated how you can do this. Basically cigarette paper carefully wrapped around a ball with the powder inside. You need to get the longer papers I tried it in my .36, it worked, but might as well just use pre-measured glass phials of powder.
A friend of mine uses conicals in his Ruger which he's just had converted to smokeless powder with great success. You can get a LEE mould that will give you one ball and one conical, I may try conicals in the future. Note to Smokeless I would have thought a conical ball would be more accurate i.e. more surface for the rifling mmmmhhh..

[Smokeless Coal]

Yes JP I thought that so I brought the mold which casts two at a time.

It might be because I use a light load and seat a long way into the chamber. Like I say it is my fun load so I havn't fully experimented with it. A hot load was no good because it was stripping on the rifling and causing tumblers and keyhole hits. Perhaps a slightly harder alloy would improve that.

One of the facets of m/l is experimentation and tweaking to find what suits best for powder and projectile. But I also tweaked a load that is simple and dead easy to clean for a bit of fun.

[Aeroman]

Brass frames came into being IIRC because during the American civil war there was a shortage of steel in the south compared to the more industrialised north, and so church bells were melted down as a resource for making the non pressure bearing parts of guns.

[Aeroman]

Basically the north won the war not from better soldiers or any particular moral conviction - they treated the blacks worse than most of the southern farmers did - it was purely a question of economics

[Gunny]

Tried BP pistol for the first time a couple of weeks ago simply because my son fancied it.

My initial impression of BP shooters was of bearded, sandal clad vegetable knitters, and the men were much the same!

I've now totally changed my opinion because of the fantastic GRRRRIINNNN factor

Pistol shooting is a different discipline to rifles but BP pistols are such a way of life. Some club members have shot everything but now only shoot BP. It's probably the careful, measured pace of loading, aiming and shooting which is different to any other shooting.

Hope you enjoy it (I do) but be careful, it can become addictive.

I'm quite used to aiming off, as a Browning 9mm Hi Power hasn't got adjustable sights
Baz

The sights cannot be adjusted but aim is adjusted by interchangeable/ moveable foresights.

Have fun shooting.

[LONG REACH]

Well, We've just gotback from our 1st day at a shooting club and have started the process of becoming members. Had an excellent day, shot a few different types of weapon, .22 rimfire, BSA Martini target rifle @ 50mtr's, not bad seeing it's about 26 yrs since I did any .22 target shooting. watched this bloke Steve, shooting his .45 cal Kentucky flintlock, excellent weapon. My wife and I were both offered a try, but declined, as flintlock's aren't my thing and the wife reckoned that she wouldn't be able to hold it upright long enough to aim & shoot We did take up his very kind offer to try his .36 cal, Uberti Colt Army (steel frame), which we both enjoyed very much. I had my 1st go a loading a cap & ball revolver and was OK except for having sausage fingers, when placing the cap's and I was a bit unsure about squeezing them to gain a tighter fit, as Steve showed me . But we both had a go and really had a very good day, we got there for 11am, next thing we knew, it was 4.30pm, doesn't time fly when you're enjoying yourself !!!!

Thanks Again fella's for all of your replies, believe me, I am taking note of everything that's said, as every bit of knowledge is very useful, so please feel free to add any gems of information, that you think I should know about

p.s. YES !!!, I am definately converted to muzzle loading :

All the best
Baz

[Simon G]

I use conicals most of the time, it saves using a wad and the risk of flashover must be a lot less.

Simplest load is 777 and a conical prelubed with alox. Fussier load is 777 precision measured, filler plus a lubed wad and a ball (matched weights) again with alox.

SC,

I think you may have it wrong. I currently have a "wager" with a lad in the club as he is also using a filler with 777. I remember that Hodgdon specifically warn against this.

Likewise, the use of a felt wad is also mandatory.

777 is a lot hotter than black and the properties of it can easily be replicated to the behaviour of nitro smokeless. This could prove catastrophic.

I'm waiting for a reply from Hodgdon help desk. When I get it, I'll post it. It may prove useful.....