underlever with sliding tap

[davidstoncold]

can anyone tell me approx how many underlever air rifles there are with a sliding loading tap and what makes they are . .thanks

[Gareth W-B]

anyone tell me approx how many underlever air rifles there are with a sliding loading tap and what makes they are. thanks

Hi David, a wide topic area this. There have been absolutely hundreds of variants of the underlever air rifle made with loading taps since 1901, and they came from many manufacturers, all of whome in turn produced many different models along the same theme... The main manufacturers however were Lincoln Jefferies, BSA, Haenal, Diana, and after WWII Webley & Scott with their MkIII. BSA also produced a sliding rotary breech underlever in the early 1900s and redesigned it for an Airsporter variant and range of rifles called Superstars in the 1990s (this re-vamped rotary breech being known as the second type RB-2), and HW and AA produce sliding breech loading underlevers such as the HW77, HW97, TX and Pro-Sport to this day (a bit vague but hope this helps ). Atb: Gareth W-B.

[davidstoncold]

thanks gareth , just that i have been told of one that the person who saw it doesnt know what it is. i will have to go see it myself.all he can remember is that it has sling attachments on the side of the stock and he says it looks like something out of a war film (bless him).

thanks for the info.

[Gareth W-B]

thanks gareth , just that i have been told of one that the person who saw it doesnt know what it is. i will have to go see it myself.all he can remember is that it has sling attachments on the side of the stock and he says it looks like something out of a war film (bless him).

thanks for the info.

Hi again David. Hope I'm wrong but it sounds like it may be a Chinese B4. Loads of these have been imported over the last 25ish years, and are still available (unfortunately) today. If it is one of these Chinese things they retail at £54.95 brand new even now, and second hand are maybe worth £20 tops. They are truly dreadful things so I hope it isn't one of these as you will have been potentially excited over nothing . These are just my thoughts on the B4 however (imported in the main by SMK and Westlake and sometimes called the Lion), but I doubt I am alone in this . Atb and keep us up to speed as am always in search of happy endings . Ha ha. Atb: Gareth.

[davidstoncold]

thanks gareth the triangle shaped sling mounts have confirmed saved me a trip..

[Hsing-ee]

The Haenal 312 has a sliding compression chamber like the Feinwerkbau 150/300, HW77, AA TX200 and of course the Chinese Lion and DB4 but I think it had it before most of them except the Feinwerkbau.

They are quite rare in the UK but not in the new Germany.

Is the RB1 really 100 years old? Why the didnt they market that as soon as they invented it? Unbelievable lost opportunity.

[Gareth W-B]

Is the RB1 really 100 years old? Why the didnt they market that as soon as they invented it? Unbelievable lost opportunity.

Yep, as near as damn it, but I don't think the world was as ready for them back then as they were in 1990. After all, it was the RB-I and quite clumsy compared to the RB-2 we now know, and besides, those lovely tap thingies that are so synonymous with the underlevers in question are so indicative of an era that I couldn't imagine BSA air gun history without them. Imo therefore, I am glad the introduction of the RB to replace the tap system took eighty plus years . Atb: Gareth W-B.

[Hsing-ee]

After all, it was the RB-I and quite clumsy compared to the RB-2 we now know, and besides, those lovely tap thingies that are so synonymous with the underlevers in question are so indicative of an era that I couldn't imagine BSA air gun history without them. Gareth W-B.

But but but ... direct loading! The Lincoln Jefferies-type taps had to be hand-fitted by expert gas-fitters to work properly and they are such a weak design compared to the RB. Have you got a picture of an RB1? If BSA had got the RB2 out in the 1970s then they might still be making a fixed-barrel springer.

[Gareth W-B]

But but but ... direct loading! The Lincoln Jefferies-type taps had to be hand-fitted by expert gas-fitters to work properly and they are such a weak design compared to the RB. Have you got a picture of an RB1? If BSA had got the RB2 out in the 1970s then they might still be making a fixed-barrel springer.

But that hand fitting was a celebration of British craftsmanship and engineering. No photo of the first BSA RB unfortunately, as it never made it to a production gun at that time and no prototypes have survived that I know of (but I would be delighted to be proved wrong and get to see one myself). The info I have relayed above is just what I've managed to cribb over the years from Messers Bowkett and Knibbs . Totally agree that an RB in the late 1970s would've secured a BSA legacy however, but the HW77 came along first and after that it was a game of catch up (must get me another HW77 one of these days ... oops no I can't, as I've said recently on another BBS thread that my collection is complete for the foreseeable future ). Atb: Gareth W-B.

[fat man]

brught back memories rather unpleasent of a gun that arrived on a Saturday morning in the mail, (many years ago), used for a plinking sessin on Sunday morning, fell apart around me, and was posted back on Monday morning with a letter of complaint and a request for my money back. I wonder ifthats a record! i read somewhere that it was a training gun for the Red Chinese army or something, on my observations if thats the case i donot think we have much to worry about. !!! Dreadful gun then , i have not been brave enough to sample the new versions but the 19 model a mate has and the little 15 his son has are in a different league so maybe the b4/Lion has improved.

[ogilkes]

Don't think it was ever really an army training gun, though it might have been used by young pioneers for their first miitary training. Certainly some of the Chinese guns were, Hiller puts in a picture of school girls shooting with B2 type riles. But the ones we get are designed for export.

Rubbish or not (and they can be dreadful) the basic design was inspired and a classic, and had the Chinese made a really good quality version of this for export it might have been a milestone! probably not a copy of anything from the west the Lion and the DB4 which seems to have been the first Chinese gun to use the sliding breech were out years before the HW77.

If there is any outside influence then its form the Siminov semi-automatic carbine which the Chinese army issued to milita and second line units for many years, the DB4 in particular is deliberately made to look like this, blocky stock, square trigger guard...

The other thing that has a vague external resemblance to the Chinese underlevers is the Bsf S54, a massive underlver with certain superficial similarities. If there is any copying going on from a western air rifle its this imo, and then only in genneral form as the Bsf is a tap loader.

Mock the Chinese underlelvers if you want, and rubbish they can be, but they are a significant piece of airgun history.

[fat man]

hello, could i just say that my recolection of the Lion/ b4 rile was just my rememberance of a bad example of that particular rifle. I have shot the smk19 and 15 owned by a friend and they are in another league. My Lion was an early one bought for some £19.00 in the early 80's and it was crap, that was then , now who knows! I was looking at a Bam 40 on an American site and sorry Air-Arms but thats a tx200 to me, its that good, if they ever sell it here i would buy, so has my view on Chinese Rifles changed yes and n o still think that Lion was/is the worst rifle i have ever owned !!! but my xs78 i love , and the 19 / 20 super grades could well find a space in my Gun Cabinets .Take care all -Fat Man