What IS the cut-off point for antiques?

[Jim McArthur]

If I recall correctly - and this is just off the top of my head - under US FEDERAL law (and I stress federal: states and localities can and do vary tremendously), cartridge guns made before 1898 are automatically antiques, and unregulated, regardless of caiber.

There are also guns of later manufacture that are in calibers designated obsolete, that are not regulated (though I think you might need a "curios and relics" collector's license to be able to circumvent normal federal regs on purchasing them: but I'm not sure abut that).

What are the corresponding UK regs?

Jim

[ogilkes]

I think its 100 years old, though for air weapons its pre 1939

[Simon G]

I think its 100 years old, though for air weapons its pre 1939

It matters greatly on the calibre. If the calibre is not on the "obsolete list", then regardless of age, it's subject to legislation.

[Jim McArthur]

It matters greatly on the calibre. If the calibre is not on the "obsolete list", then regardless of age, it's subject to legislation.

Ah! So caliber's the distinguishing point, not age.

Jim

[ogilkes]

I'm sure there is a provsion for guns over a certain age not requiring certificaation as long as they are 'curios' and not used, perhaps calibre comes into it too. Certainly for air weapons its still legal to buy direct from dealers by post for pre 39 items.

[greasemonkey]

here in the UK we have a list drawn up by the goverment[home office] which states all the calibres that are considered obsolete .guns chambered in these calbres are classed as section 58d in UK firearms law and allowed to be possesed as"antiques or curios"without licence .firing or possesing live ammunition for these guns is illegal. its a good idea if you collect this type of weapon particularly centrefire revolvers to aquire dummy rounds in non obsolete calibres ie.455,.32 etc and try them in the gun before puchase as i have come across several revolvers that have had the chambers reamed out in the past to accept a more readily available round which makes them section5[a prohibited weapon] which could earn you a holiday without a suntan; .;..greasemonkey

[robinghewitt]

In the US a muzzle loader is a non-gun under Federal law, make your own is fine and dandy, do what you like, no proof requirement. In the UK all muzzle loaders are classed as obsolete cartridge, but, if you want to keep one as curiosity or ornament it has to have been made before the outbreak of WW2, ie: 1939.

There is a proof requirement if you want to sell or hock a gun but that does not apply to ornaments, so you have to take them off SGC/FAC before you sell if the proofs have faded. There is no proof requirement to shoot a gun but your firing range might be a bit picky if you push the boundaries. Owning cartridges for your ornament puts the ornament outside the law, owning balls for you ML ornament is okay.

You can shoot an ornament but only infrequently, once or twice a year, beyond that you need to certificate it.

[whitevanman574]

In the US a muzzle loader is a non-gun under Federal law, make your own is fine and dandy, do what you like, no proof requirement. In the UK all muzzle loaders are classed as obsolete cartridge, but, if you want to keep one as curiosity or ornament it has to have been made before the outbreak of WW2, ie: 1939.

There is a proof requirement if you want to sell or hock a gun but that does not apply to ornaments, so you have to take them off SGC/FAC before you sell if the proofs have faded. There is no proof requirement to shoot a gun but your firing range might be a bit picky if you push the boundaries. Owning cartridges for your ornament puts the ornament outside the law, owning balls for you ML ornament is okay.

You can shoot an ornament but only infrequently, once or twice a year, beyond that you need to certificate it.

very interesting i did not know you coud fire an obsolete calibre or ornament once or twice a year,thought it was an ornament cause you can only look at it !!!!!!!!!!

[rayman]

I buy & sell a lot of antique obsolete pistols & rifles from the USA, the law in the UK is to be by virtue sec 58.2 they must be over 100 years old with an obsolete calibre ie, 44 rus, 41, 32 rim, 38 rim, 9mm swiss, 442, 10.6mm, 11mm, the list is vast, unlike the USA we have a wider span for cut off age bringing us up to 1908, but unlike the USA we cannot shoot them without sec 5 or 7 certificate. Take a look at www.coreden.com they have a wide range of antique obsolete rifles & pistols for sale like myself.

Cheers, Glynn.

[robinghewitt]

very interesting i did not know you coud fire an obsolete calibre or ornament once or twice a year,thought it was an ornament cause you can only look at it !!!!!!!!!!

Not all obsolete calibres, just muzzle loading obsolete calibres. You can't legally have bullets for your .44 Russian ornament, even on an approved range

[Jim McArthur]

the law in the UK is to be by virtue sec 58.2 they must be over 100 years old with an obsolete calibre ie, 44 rus, 41, 32 rim, 38 rim, 9mm swiss, 442, 10.6mm, 11mm, the list is vast, unlike the USA we have a wider span for cut off age bringing us up to 1908, but unlike the USA we cannot shoot them without sec 5 or 7 certificate

Cheers, Glynn.

OK, it's making more sense all the time: it's a combination of age ("more than 100 years old"), PLUS, being chambered for an obsolete caliber.

Yes, our "pre-1898" law in the US is tougher in that respect. However, while I may very well be wrong, I think that the pre-1898 rule applies regardless of what caliber it is: as long as that particular gun meets the age requirement.

Jim

[Jim McArthur]

I buy & sell a lot of antique obsolete pistols & rifles from the USA, the law in the UK is to be by virtue sec 58.2 they must be over 100 years old with an obsolete calibre ie, 44 rus, 41, 32 rim, 38 rim, 9mm swiss, 442, 10.6mm, 11mm, the list is vast, unlike the USA we have a wider span for cut off age bringing us up to 1908, but unlike the USA we cannot shoot them without sec 5 or 7 certificate. Take a look at www.coreden.com they have a wide range of antique obsolete rifles & pistols for sale like myself.

Cheers, Glynn.

Some very nice guns there, Glynn: too bad I'm not in the neighborhood, I could give you some business!

And speaking of which - you'd be the one to ask - is there any restriction on private sales of antique guns between the US and the UK (assuming they're "exempt antiques" under both country's laws, of course)?

Jim

[Smokeless Coal]

We hold antiques under section 58 of our firearms act.

Interestingly as well as obsolete calibre it also says all muzzle loaded firearms are sec 58, no FAC needed. Our HomeOffice issues guidelines to local licencing offices that modern replica m/l's must be held under section 1 and on a FAC. But they are guidelines our Law says different.

The hundred years I think covers all antiques or old stuff rather than our firearms that can be held. Not looking at the Firearms act again today but 2 dates flash before my brain cell of 1919 and 1939, we could certainly hold a Colt 1911 in an obsolete caliber.

As well as obsolete caliber we can have rare or special interest or forming part of a collection firearms, like someone I know has a collection of all the AMT stuff stashed around the world who would like to have it over here. Not particulary old but no longer produced so potentialy of future historic interest.

[Jim McArthur]

We hold antiques under section 58 of our firearms act.

Interestingly as well as obsolete calibre it also says all muzzle loaded firearms are sec 58, no FAC needed. Our HomeOffice issues guidelines to local licencing offices that modern replica m/l's must be held under section 1 and on a FAC. But they are guidelines our Law says different.

Another of the unfortunately many examples of government "interpreting" laws to achieve the desired result.

Jim

[rayman]

Some very nice guns there, Glynn: too bad I'm not in the neighborhood, I could give you some business!

And speaking of which - you'd be the one to ask - is there any restriction on private sales of antique guns between the US and the UK (assuming they're "exempt antiques" under both country's laws, of course)?

Jim

Hi Jim, it's all very easy, if you can find a like minded person in the States you can bring in AOs into UK with no problem, but you must state on Customs form that it is an Antique Curio sec 58.2, with no 38 centre fires or alike getting through as they do, Customs open most packets from the US to UK, most days of the week Customs in UK pick up modern firearms like ppks etc, they don't make it to the new owner & are destroyed, so be mindfull, as for sending AOs to the States it's a nightmare, ATF do not want them.
But I do have some very good contacts in PA & TX this works very well as I have been dealing with some of them for over 15 years. I should think you being on the otherside of the pond have a great chance of finding SAA & Smoots at fairly good prices at these gun shows you do over there. Take a look at the AuctionArms.com they have loads of great AO deals & it's all in the USA lots of Private & Trade sales.

ATB, Glynn.