beginners guide to bp part two... calibre??

[tacfoley]

Using an undersized bullet might make a difference but I can see where you're coming from Tac.
Cheers

Not ME, Sir, but the Range Safety and Public Event Control Board of the N-SSA - the half-million strong North-South Skirmish Association.

I, too, use a chamber sealer, as I noted - my choice is the water soluble emulsion dermalogical hand-cream preparation called E-45 in the UK. It keeps the fouling soft, and washes away with it on cleaning.

tac

[Jim McArthur]

Difficult to say Jim, but I know I'm not overly bothered by recoil and blast. Back in the cartridge handguns days, my favourite wheelgun was a S&W 627 Horton Spl in .44 mag with a three inch barrel!

One of my .36's, an Uberti 1861 Navy, is cut for a shoulder stock. I also have a stock. With this stock fitted, it will put all six rounds in about inch at 25 yards. A two handed hold, I can't duplicate this, but it certainly shows the accuracy potential. And the .36's always post better scores than with the .44's......

If a .44 mag out of a 3 inch barrel doesn't bother you, Simon, then I'll have to agree that blast and recoil aren't problems for you!

One inch groups: mighty nice!

Jim

[lilguy43uk]

And BTW - it has been shown over in the USA by careful experimentation that multiple discharges are NOT initiated from the open end of the chamber, but by poorly fitted percussion caps. And I would very much like to see the gun that was 'destroyed' by such a multiple discharge.

tac - BP shooter since 1964

I've asked the question Tac and the police have the gun at the moment, nobody seems to have any idea why. It is expected to be returned eventually however.

I'm told that the top strap has lifted and one of the chamber blown out. I must admit that this sounds suspiciously like an overcharged chamber rather than a chain fire but, you never know.

If it comes back I'll get some pictures posted.

Jim

[jax13]

this is NOT filling me with confidence!

going back to the origins of the thread if i may

i was looking at a remington old army (and a rem army 18 something something) what are the opinions of these?? i quite liked the way it felt and handled, and the price was bang on for my budget too.

what say the learned?? good, bad, indifferent??? things to look for? both were in .44 and seem pretty much what i'm after (i think!)

[harricook]

Hi jax13

a Ruger Old Army or a Remington 1858 NMA (I have both) both shoot well - they both also feel very different.

Then your decision is on blued or stainless & then target sights or 'spirit of the original' (which of course the Ruger does not fit anyway if you intend to shoot in comps)

I love to shoot both of mine (both are stainless) and I use 457 ball in both. Have used conicals - accuracy is definately better - but I dont have a conical mold at present - so shoot home cast ball as a matter of cost preference.

They both have a HUUUUUGE grin factor - and anyone that comes to the club enjoys shooting them !


Get one you wont regret coming over to the 'Dark Side' [insert devil smiley here !]

Oh - and regarding Chainfires or Multiple Discharges - have a look at how hard this guy tried to cause them .http://www.svartkrutt.net/articles/vis.php?id=13

ATB

Roy

.

[lilguy43uk]

My apologies if I seem to have moved the thread off topic.

Don't be put of by the subject though, careful reloading procedures minimise any dangers.

In that respect it's not different than loading for metallic cartridges. The watchwords have to be car, attention to detail and consistency in your procedures.

Jim

[tacfoley]

I've asked the question Tac and the police have the gun at the moment, nobody seems to have any idea why. It is expected to be returned eventually however.

I'm told that the top strap has lifted and one of the chamber blown out. I must admit that this sounds suspiciously like an overcharged chamber rather than a chain fire but, you never know.

If it comes back I'll get some pictures posted.

Jim

I have been talking to a few friends over the way about this so-called destroyed gun, and nobody I have asked, with a combined shooting experience of around a thousand years, has EVER heard of any BP revolver, even an original, blowing up as you describe - USING BLACK POWDER. You simply cannot get enough BP AND ball into the chamber to do this sort of damage. Please talk to the B'ham Proof House, if you care to. I've been shooting BP of all kinds since the middle 1960's and I've never encountered such a thing happening, BTW.

IF it is the case that the gun HAS let go shooting BP - remember that it has been proofed here in UK - the respective proof house must be permitted to comment on this occasion. The poor gun that seems to have been arrested and detained against its will, without being charged, is simply the injured party here.

Because the revolver has a 'moving element' that instantaneously permits the pressure to drop [the ball that moves out of the chamber and down the barrel] the chances of a top strap being blown up as well as a chamber being dismantled sounds more and more like the use of nitro powder OR a seriously-flawed part that somehow escaped the attention of the inspecting proof house.

A multiple discharge is an attention-getter, that's for sure, but remember that the other chambers that go off are not only pointing down-range, but are open to the air. The only one I ever saw [an original Colt Model 1851] fired the [correct] top chamber and the other two on each side and the gun was fine. And no, it was not mine.

tac

[jax13]

My apologies if I seem to have moved the thread off topic.

Don't be put of by the subject though, careful reloading procedures minimise any dangers.

In that respect it's not different than loading for metallic cartridges. The watchwords have to be car, attention to detail and consistency in your procedures.

Jim

don't worry about it jim - it makes for good reading (even if i don't completely understand all of it yet!)

i did quite like the remmy and i think it was stainless @ £150 second hand - does that seem like a good price?? it was in mint condition as far as i could tell (but i don't know exactly what to look for re: wear and tear or potential mistreatment... yet)

just out of curiosity - what do you use for a 'load' in the remington?

the revolver i shot at the club (which i'm sure was a ruger) was powder, filler, ball - cap on the back and shoot. no wad, no E45 cream. are these essential or is it purely a personal preference?

[tacfoley]

don't worry about it jim - it makes for good reading (even if i don't completely understand all of it yet!)

i did quite like the remmy and i think it was stainless @ £150 second hand - does that seem like a good price?? it was in mint condition as far as i could tell (but i don't know exactly what to look for re: wear and tear or potential mistreatment... yet)

just out of curiosity - what do you use for a 'load' in the remington?

the revolver i shot at the club (which i'm sure was a ruger) was powder, filler, ball - cap on the back and shoot. no wad, no E45 cream. are these essential or is it purely a personal preference?

There are as many answers as questions. I happen to LIKE the fact that E45 washes away and takes all the crud with it - as it is not a grease or even oil-based it simply thins out and disappears in hot water. I can't be farting about with filler from another container - powder, ball, finger wipe of E45, caps on with the in-line capper and off you go.

We all do what we want.

The 'old folks' never bothered with grease or filler either, unless they were going to leave the gun overnight, then they used tallow and bees wax mix.

Or not.

tac

[jax13]

cheers tac - and just to answer another similar question, are the lubricated wads doing the same (or similar job) as the E45?

i actually like the idea of using e45 as i know that for me, the cleaning will be the bit that puts me off or it would be left for tomorrow and i'd end up knackering the gun!



so my interpretation is (and please correct me if i'm wrong)

• that people use slightly oversized balls to get a perfect fit hence shaving off the little ring of lead on the way
• powder is essential (obviously) and the choice to go for pyrodex over BP is personal preference rather than a limitation on the guns part (with pyrodex being fine on FAC but BP needs an extra explosives license)
• the use of a filler is not essential and is again, a personal preference thing
• E45 helps stop the powder residue etc. from sticking on and makes the cleaning process a lot less labour intensive
• there are no right or wrong answers in the world of black powder!

if all the above is true...... then i could be on my way to bp shooting with a pistol, balls, pyrodex, powder flask & a trip to boots?

[tacfoley]

cheers tac - and just to answer another similar question, are the lubricated wads doing the same (or similar job) as the E45?

Sort of. Unless you have access to 1/8" felt and a suitably sized wad-cutter to make your own they are also pretty expensive, too. Wonder-Wads is the name to look out for. Maybe there is a equivalent, but I've never seen them. Up to you, if money is no object.

i actually like the idea of using e45 as i know that for me, the cleaning will be the bit that puts me off or it would be left for tomorrow and i'd end up knackering the gun!

If you are going the Pyrodex route then cleaning the very same day is an absolute must - same with 777 and 'Cleanshot'.

so my interpretation is (and please correct me if i'm wrong)
[*]that people use slightly oversized balls to get a perfect fit hence shaving off the little ring of lead on the way.

Most BP revolvers of .44cal shoot a ball of at least .451 diameter. Some, like the ROA, shoot a larger ball of .457" diameter - this is why over here the arm seems to have gotten the nomenclature of .45"cal.
[*]powder is essential (obviously) and the choice to go for pyrodex over BP is personal preference rather than a limitation on the guns part (with pyrodex being fine on FAC but BP needs an extra explosives license)

MY choice is Pyrodex for a number of reasons -

a. It's all I can get - this is a pretty good reason to me.

b. BP is a real hassle AFAIAC - my home insurance company does not like it in the house.

c. I've been shooting Pyrodex P it since it came out, and its funny little ways are well under control [it likes v. hot caps].
[*]the use of a filler is not essential and is again, a personal preference thing

If you load less than capacity loads, say 18-20gr in a .44, then you are going to need a filler to get the ball in the best place - just below the rim of the chamber. I use 24gr of Pyrodex P in my ROA, and this is just about flush with the end of the chamber leaving room for a 'wipe over' of E45 - MY preferred lube. I've never met anybody else here in UK who uses it, but over in Germany, where I began my BP career in the mid-60's, they mostly use the German version of the same thing in handguns. I would point out that the German BP shooting scene has over 1 million participants....
[*]E45 helps stop the powder residue etc. from sticking on and makes the cleaning process a lot less labour intensive.

IMO. yes.
[*]there are no right or wrong answers in the world of black powder!

Correct. Apart from the obvious use of correct loading procedures and safe handling - and there IS a dedicated BP RCO course if you want to take it - so much of BP shooting is down to myth and legend, hearsay and gossip, trial and error as well as hit and miss...

if all the above is true...... then i could be on my way to bp shooting with a pistol, balls, pyrodex, powder flask & a trip to boots?[/QUOTE]

Ahem. You'll be needing caps somewhere in there, too, unless you intend to stand there and go 'Bang' very loudly. And it's Pyrodex P you'll be needing for BP revolver, as well.

Luck, eh?

tac

[lilguy43uk]

i did quite like the remmy and i think it was stainless @ £150 second hand - does that seem like a good price?? it was in mint condition as far as i could tell (but i don't know exactly what to look for re: wear and tear or potential mistreatment... yet)

just out of curiosity - what do you use for a 'load' in the remington?

Jax

I use 21gn FFFg in my stainless Remmy. It gives a satisfying thump and good accuracy without excessive recoil. The Pietta manual however, says 12 - 15gn FFFg for the .44 and 9 - 12 gn FFFg for the .36 but most of the BP forums that I've been on seem to think that this is a quite light. What do you think Tac?

You can buy semi greased felt wads which takes all the bother of sourcing felt, buying wad cutters and ruining the dining room table curring wads.

[tacfoley]

I use 21gn FFFg in my stainless Remmy. It gives a satisfying thump and good accuracy without excessive recoil. The Pietta manual however, says 12 - 15gn FFFg for the .44 and 9 - 12 gn FFFg for the .36 but most of the BP forums that I've been on seem to think that this is a quite light. What do you think Tac?

European manufacturers are notoriously coy about loads, for the simple reason that they think they might get sued. Most Pietta shooters in the club to which I belong shoot between 20 and 30gr of FFFg in their .44s. Please feel free to shoot what you consider to be a safe load. Many makers, as well as the UK Proof houses, actually mark the gun with a safe load - this is NOT the proof load!

JFI - the Dixie Gun Works reference material, all of the Numrich Books, all the Black Powder Digests as well as the Pyrodex manual all have the same figures of around 24gr of FFg or 80% of that load for Pyrodex P in a modern manufacturer's .44cal revolver in good condition.

You can buy semi greased felt wads which takes all the bother of sourcing felt, buying wad cutters and ruining the dining room table curring wads.

Fine, but I know many who make their own wads. Me, I don't use 'em.

tac

[lilguy43uk]

I have been talking to a few friends over the way about this so-called destroyed gun, and nobody I have asked, with a combined shooting experience of around a thousand years, has EVER heard of any BP revolver, even an original, blowing up as you describe - USING BLACK POWDER. You simply cannot get enough BP AND ball into the chamber to do this sort of damage.

Derek Fuller in his book "The Definitive Guide to Muzzle Loading Pistols" makes a very good point.

Whilst the European copies may work quite well under relatively light loads of black powder, the same can't be said of the originals. In particular the Remington which was designed for full chamber loads and has a short rammer. This may not be long enough to push the ball down onto the powder, without the use of wad or filler, leaving a dangerous void behind the ball and an uncontrolled "burn."

Whether this was the case, or if an overload of Pyrodex or nitro was used, I don't know yet as we're waiting for the gun to be returned. Incidentally Tac, it's the H & S Executive and not the police that have the gun at the mo.

As soon as I know more I'll post it because we all should be able to learn something from incidents such as this.

Jim

[tacfoley]

Derek Fuller in his book "The Definitive Guide to Muzzle Loading Pistols" makes a very good point.

Whilst the European copies may work quite well under relatively light loads of black powder, the same can't be said of the originals. In particular the Remington which was designed for full chamber loads and has a short rammer. This may not be long enough to push the ball down onto the powder, without the use of wad or filler, leaving a dangerous void behind the ball and an uncontrolled "burn."

Whether this was the case, or if an overload of Pyrodex or nitro was used, I don't know yet as we're waiting for the gun to be returned. Incidentally Tac, it's the H & S Executive and not the police that have the gun at the mo.

As soon as I know more I'll post it because we all should be able to learn something from incidents such as this.

Jim

Dear Mr Jim - thank you for that information - many of us on www.muzzleloadingforum.com are waiting to learn more.

tac