Reply With QuoteTacOriginally Posted by tacfoley
My apologies if I've misread the tone of your post here. Perhaps two days of flu like symptoms has left me a little sensitive.
Banned
Sir - I assure you that I am not being sarcastic. There is not the lightest hint of sarcasm in my posts on this subject. If you care to look on www.muzzleloadingforum.com you will see my posts there on tnis subject.
As a long-time shooter of both rifles and handguns, naturally I am VERY interested to see the results of the investigation.
Please re-read my posts here -
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Login Name Post: Genuine query here. (Topic#233741)
tac
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Posts: 1033
Loc: Oregon, Ontario, UK, Japa...
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Wed Apr 29 2009 10:38 AM - Post#713380
OK, 'fess up, how many of you have actually SEEN a modern BP reolver that has blown up when shooting a regular load of correct BP?
Over here in UK there is a thread on a well-regarded forum about such an event - the top-strap has been 'blown out' and a chamber has lost its side.
No other details are forthcoming as the gun has been 'arrested' by the police [nobody has the faintest notion why].
Personally, in over 45 years of shooting BP of all kinds, I have never seen such a thing. In our local gun store there is a display Model 1858 Army that was used to demonstrate what happens if you load it with nitro - but that was intentionally done to act as a deterrent.
Remember, too, that here in UK ALL BP arms have to be proofed before sale, regardless of the country of origin and proof. That means every chamber of every revolver.
Your views are sought.
tac
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CZMark
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Posts: 470
Loc: Foggybog, WI
Registered on Fri Mar 16 2007
Wed Apr 29 2009 12:45 PM - Post#713395
In response to tac
I'm no expert, but from the damage you describe, I would suspect there was smokeless powder in the cylinder.
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Mike2005
54 Cal.
Posts: 1623
Loc: Wyoming
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Wed Apr 29 2009 01:18 PM - Post#713409
In response to tac
I have only heard of it happening in a revolver when someone was using smokeless powder.
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poordevil
40 Cal.
Posts: 132
Loc: Yuma, AZ
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Wed Apr 29 2009 04:06 PM - Post#713454
In response to Mike2005
Never
P
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Plink
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Posts: 4028
Age: 46
Loc: Texas
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Wed Apr 29 2009 05:54 PM - Post#713482
In response to tac
I've never seen any black powder gun blow up using the proper powder.
Let's assume for a moment that the gun you mentioned had a flaw in the metal of the chamber. That still wouldn't blow out the rather substantial top strap. I strongly suspect someone loaded smokeless powder and didn't realize it. Black powder just doesn't have that much power.
I do gun shows for a living and I run into all sorts. I was talking to a guy at a show once, about my love of black powder guns. He said he'd never own one because they blow up too easily. He said his brother had blown up 3 already! I can only assume that this guy thinks any powder that is black is black powder.
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tac
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Wed Apr 29 2009 06:05 PM - Post#713489
In response to CZMark
To CZMark and all - I'm thinking that there is something fishy about this - the police do not usually get involved in cases of damaged firearms - I'm beginning to think that there is some element of criminality here that we are not privy to.
Remember, too, that EVERY BP handgun sold here in UK has to pass UK proof - in every chamber of every revolver, before it can be sold. Unless. of course, there was a fault that 'suddenly' developed. I've never seen or heard of such a thing, either.
I'll keep you all posted, just for interest, if that's OK with you guys.
Best
tac
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CZMark
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Loc: Foggybog, WI
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Wed Apr 29 2009 06:14 PM - Post#713493
In response to tac
tac Said:I'll keep you all posted, just for interest, if that's OK with you guys.
Please do.
And yes, the police involvement is curious.
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Robert an saa fan
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Loc: Northern California
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Wed Apr 29 2009 06:17 PM - Post#713494
In response to tac
Have been shooting many different black powder revolvers since the early 1970's and have attended lots of gun shows.
In all that time have never verified a modern black powder revolver that was blown up with real black powder. Have seen a few cylinders that were blown up; the stories involved stupid acts by careless people or there was no story.
Back then I decided not to fire the various low quality or "cheap" revolvers as I simply did not trust them.
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Coot
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Wed Apr 29 2009 06:27 PM - Post#713495
In response to tac
A commonly held opinion regarding black powder revolvers is that due to the limited chamber size, you cannot load a bursting charge & still seat the ball. I have never heard of, much less seen, one that burst using real black powder. If one is loaded with modern smokeless powder & only designed for the lower pressure of black powder, it is quite possible. Perhaps the police suspect that someone purposefully substituted smokeless in the shooters flask or can in an attempt to do them harm while appearing to be an accident???
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Russ T Frizzen
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Wed Apr 29 2009 07:05 PM - Post#713510
In response to tac
I have never heard of a C&B revolver bursting when loaded properly. It seems most likely that smokeless powder was used in this instance. Some people think that as long as the powder is black in color it is safe to use, not realising that some smokeles powder is also black. Very hard on the revolver and not good for the fingers either.
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runnball
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Wed Apr 29 2009 09:40 PM - Post#713546
In response to tac
I would suspect nitro powder. In my almost 40 years of shooting I have personally seen one gun pop and it was not a revolver but an original P53 Enfield. The best guess is that when the minie bullet was seated it came part way back up the bore when the rammer was withdrawn. It was suspected that it either stuck to the end either from a burr or too much lube forming a vacuum between to rammer end and the bullet nose.
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Homesteader
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Wed Apr 29 2009 10:36 PM - Post#713560
In response to tac
Started shooting smokewagons in '75. Never seen it happen.
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Zonie
Moderator
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Loc: Phoenix Arizona
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Thu Apr 30 2009 02:03 AM - Post#713645
In response to Homesteader
I've never seen a black powder revolver "blow up" nor one that did.
I've seen modern revolvers after they blew up, usually caused by a barrel obstruction or by using reloads which were overloaded with the wrong powder (Bullseye).
Testing for nitro based powder residue is a fairly easy test for the Police and I'm sure if it was present on the damaged gun they would know.
I'm not sure they would tell the world about their findings though and that's a shame.
As easy as it is for the rumor mill to start spreading false assumptions, it would be good to get the truth out to the public.
If it turns out that this was indeed a failure of the gun with a black powder charge folks need to know. Especially those who persist in loading as much powder as is possible under heavy bullets.
On the other hand, if it was indeed caused by smokeless powder that too should be known so there is no uncalled for over reaction to the event with the typical "Those Black Powder guns are dangerous!" reaction from the general public. Just Jim...
"Keep Your Eyes Peeled"
Edited by Zonie on Thu Apr 30 2009 02:10 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.
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tac
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Loc: Oregon, Ontario, UK, Japa...
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Tue May 12 2009 04:04 PM - Post#718187
In response to Zonie
Dear Mr Zonie and all - update here - the revolver is presently being examined by the UK's Health and Safety Executive - organisation that looks at possibilites of eventual litigation with regard to manufacturing and/or use of anything that comes to their attention, as this handgun plainly has. This means that we might well be looking at some kind of court case pending - with regard to what issue, I'm afraid that right now I don't know.
However, I'm not far from the action, so I'll post here when I get something positive to tell you all.
tac
Happy now?
tac
I love my Teddy bear Mr Snuggles!
Tac
My apologies if I've misread the tone of your post here. Perhaps two days of flu like symptoms has left me a little sensitive.
The biggest problem facing this country today is not the terrorist. It's the politician.
The Bosun's Watch
I love my Teddy bear Mr Snuggles!
It now transpires that the shooter that this issue refers to was new to black powder. Instead of reading the menu before starting to cook he jumped in with both feet and loaded with Accurate No.5 for God's sake. A double based smokeless powder.
Apparently, somewhere on the label it said "universal" so he thought it was all right to use it.
My only question would be "How did he get away so lightly?"
More information will follow as I get it.
The biggest problem facing this country today is not the terrorist. It's the politician.
The Bosun's Watch
Smurf me up!
Wow !
I'm running 9.4gn of Accurate No 5 in a 357 magnum case for CF target shooting.
Now assuming he loaded 20 to 25gn in his BP pistol - that must have been SOME bang !
Thanks for the info - any pics would make a useful teaching tool too !
All the best
Roy
.
I love my Teddy bear Mr Snuggles!
Doing my best for pictures Roy but the H&S gnomes still have the gun.
The biggest problem facing this country today is not the terrorist. It's the politician.
The Bosun's Watch
Banned
Thanks for the update - would I be right in assuming that the fu%%wit shooter is ok, inspite of his complete and utter stupidity?
EVERY modern replica black powder arm is I have ever seen is clearly stamped 'FOR BLACK POWDER ONLY'. How can somebody get it so wrong?
If you e-mail me, I have a picture of a similar model that was blown up with a nitro load instead of BP.
It might be a good pic to use as a sticky, too, to warn other smart-asses about ignoring basic instructions.
tac
I love my Teddy bear Mr Snuggles!
The only injury (apart from the gun, and a severe case of Montzuma's revenge) was to someone standing behind him who received a slight cut to her forehead. The worst damage was reserved for the sidewalls (heavy gauge plywood) of the booth he was shooting from. On the right side it punched a hole straight through whilst the left side had an indentation in it.
We already have one example of carelessness and we don't want any more.
The biggest problem facing this country today is not the terrorist. It's the politician.
The Bosun's Watch
Smurf me up!
Can you imaging if it had been on the Melville @ Bisley - all that separates the shooting points is a bit of green garden mesh !
The whole range would have got a bit of shrapnell !
Roy
.
Hoist with his own petard
I can't find my 'Oh dear God NO' smilie so I'll have to useHow did the chap ever get into the sport without someone, somewher, saying NEVER stick anything else other than black powder in the gun.
I love my Teddy bear Mr Snuggles!
He jumped in without trying to learn. This is being addressed at the club at the moment. ALL muzzle loader shooters will have to undergo a training course prior to being allowed on the range.I can't find my 'Oh dear God NO' smilie so I'll have to use
While this is a right royal pain in the 'arris I can quite see why it's being done and will support the move. Probably it's motivated by a combination of pressures from H&E and the range insurers.
It's certainly made me re-examine the procedures that I follow when shooting.
The biggest problem facing this country today is not the terrorist. It's the politician.
The Bosun's Watch
Banned
Read why I take loading and reloading about as seriously as it is possible to imagine -
In 1983 I was standing in the neighbouring shooting bay when less than ten feet away from me, a young man was sitting on the ground, propped up agains the wall between us, bleeding to death from injuries he had suffered when his friend's revolver blew up as he stood beside him shooting another handgun.
Using borrowed and unfamiliar reloading gear, his pal had hand-loaded 158gr JHP bullets into .38 Special cases for his dad's old Military Police-issue WW2 Colt.
But with a load that was three times a good load for a .357Mag - 24.6gr of Unique...
The gun let go at the third shot, with a piece of the cylinder passing through the victim's neck and other fragments into his face and eyes - had he survived he would have been blind anyhow.
We kept him alive long enough for him to die as we unloaded him in my arms at the nearby ER unit - as most folks know, it's very hard to put a tourniquet on a person's neck.
tac
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