777 advice

[DaveJW]

I have just bought a Parker Hale 3 band Enfield .577 and was thinking of using 777 as I have a good supply of this powder (I use it in my Ruger Old Army). The powder I have is FFFG.
Can anyone tell me if this is okay for the 577. The previous owner used 50gn of Swiss for shooting 100 metres so I thought 40 gn (all by weight) of 777 would be about right. My club range is only 50 metres. Or, should I be buying something like Pyrodex? I have no black powder licence so a propellant is preferable. I am a complete beginner with a muzzle loading rifle so deadly accuracy isn't a consideration.
Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

[harricook]

Hi Dave

Hopefully TAC will come along with a better answer than I am about to give - but I'm sure 777 is too fine for a rifle I know TAC also shoots Pyrodex & not BP.

I am using either TS2 BP or 777 in my Pietta & Ruger OA & use a 'medium' grade black powder (from Peter Starley) in my 3 band (experimenting with 65gn loads at the moment.

777 measures by vol - but with such a small grain - you are likely to get too much oomph IMHO

TAC where are youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu ?

Roy

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[tacfoley]

Nossir - this propellant is totally unsuitable for the .577 anything - especially in such a fine grain size. The real thing used Fg.

Large calibre replica or genuine muzzleloaders shoots tend not to shoot a Minie bullet with much degree of success when trying to equal the original BP load. Big loads of 777 can blow the centre out of the bullet, leaving the skirt in the bore for you to find next time you load it up. Preventing the bullet from being seated on the charge can have catastrophic effects when next fired. A bulged barrel can be the very least of your worries.

The previous owner knew what he was doing, IMO, so my advice to you is to replicate HIS loads, not try and get centre-fire rifle performance out of a 170-year old design.

You may, of course, ignore this advice.

tac

Post amended in the light of other posts

[harricook]

Hey TAC

I know I should have waited for you !!

Roy

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[tacfoley]

Hi Dave

Hopefully TAC will come along with a better answer than I am about to give - but I'm sure 777 is too fine for a rifle I know TAC also shoots Pyrodex & not BP.

I am using either TS2 BP or 777 in my Pietta & Ruger OA & use a 'medium' (from Peter Starley) black powder in my 3 band

777 measures by vol - but with such a small grain - yua are likely to get too much oomph IMHO

TAC where are youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu ?

Roy

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Afternoom, Roy, mon vieux - yes, I DO shoot Pyrodex, but only in my revolvers - solid bullets, too, not with a whacking great hollow base and fragile skirt.

You have it absolutely right - shooting Minies, BP is all you should be shooting.

Shooting solid conicals, like a .54cal Hawken or similar, with whopping loads of around 90 - 110gr of RS is just fine, if you really have to, but I use only BP in MY .451cal BP rifle.

Besp

tac

[Smokeless Coal]

1. 777, Clean-shot and Pyrodex RS all need to be heavily compressed to work well in a muzzle-loader.

Wrong, 777 should not be compressed, it should be loaded loose with the wad just sitting on it not tamped down as you would with BP.

[tacfoley]

1. 777, Clean-shot and Pyrodex RS all need to be heavily compressed to work well in a muzzle-loader.

Wrong, 777 should not be compressed, it should be loaded loose with the wad just sitting on it not tamped down as you would with BP.

Thank you for your comment - however, I base my advice on the wording from Hodgdons own web-site notes regarding the loading of Triple Seven -

Quote - 'Seat the projectile firmly against the powder. Make sure that there is no airspace between the powder and the projectile.'

There is no mention of a wad there, nor do you use a wad when loading a .577 Minie bullet.

However, as I said to the OP, please feel free to ignore this.

tac

[DaveJW]

Thanks for the advice but nowhere did I mention trying to get centre fire performance from anything. I am new to this and just want to get the bullet to make it 50 metres to the target as a starting point.

If it has to be BP then that's what I will get - after I sort out the paperwork. I was just a bit keen to try the rifle this Sunday and happen to have a lot of 777 from my pistol. Does anyone know a stockist of BP in the Norfolk area? I seem to remember reading on here that it is getting harder to find.

[harricook]

Hi Dave

I buy mine Face to face from Peter Starley at one of the many shows he attends

I know he does mail order - not sure of the cost - give him a buzz - he friendly & helpfull

http://www.black-powder.co.uk/order.htm

Cheers

Roy

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[tacfoley]

Thanks for the advice but nowhere did I mention trying to get centre fire performance from anything. I am new to this and just want to get the bullet to make it 50 metres to the target as a starting point.

If it has to be BP then that's what I will get - after I sort out the paperwork. I was just a bit keen to try the rifle this Sunday and happen to have a lot of 777 from my pistol. Does anyone know a stockist of BP in the Norfolk area? I seem to remember reading on here that it is getting harder to find.

...and I'm here to help, but starting a response to my post using just the word 'wrong' is pretty much guaranteed to p*ss in my hat, particularly since you go on to say that you are a noob to all this...

Many folks use FFg grade black powder rather than FG, and of all of them, 'Swiss #2' is held to be the best and most consistent. Pricey, but it's only money, and you prolly won't be shooting a pound a day. Get yourself a cheap digital jeweller's scales - mine came from ##### via the Ukraine. It is super accurate and cost me £6.50 - my Lyman version cost $164.94.

Get a telescopic brass powder measure so that you can decant the weighed load into it and set it up, but do NOT load out of a flask straight into the gun at any time. Having weighed out the load on the digital scale, pour it into the measure and set the plunger so that the powder is level with the rotating top cut-off.

THEN pour it into the muzzle. You could also pre-measure the load and use vials - IF you had a set of scales of some kind.

BTW - The service charge for the Enfield three-band rifled musket was 2.5 drams - that's 65gr as near as darn it. Something a mite less than that should be your starting point - say 60gr, see how it goes after three shots, and then up the charge if needed, not forgetting to swab out the bore between shots to give yourself a chance.

I'd be interested to know what bullet you are using, too, but whatever it is, it should be about 2 thou undersized, so that you can just 'thumb' it into the muzzle, and then, push it down firmly onto the charge. The bullet, of course, should be well-lubed in the grooves with something like Bore Butter or your own concoction. I make up a 50/50 mix of pure bees-wax and neat's foot oil for all my large BP bullets, even the paper-patched Whitworth.

Anything more, please ask.

tac

[harricook]

Hey Tac

I've been experimenting with my Minies ...

I have been basically 'paper patching' them with a verythin stip of lubed kitchen roll (not 'hard' paper !) and also base filling them with lube too !

Not sure its making me shoot any better [embarrassed] - but I'm sure enjoying it (load/bullet 'tinkering') and finding it quite theraputic !

Any other 'tryouts' you know of with Minies ?

All the best

Roy

PS - never ended up living in Canada (still Berkshire) - but thanks for your 'Canadian' advise !!

[tacfoley]

Hey Tac

I've been experimenting with my Minies ...

I have been basically 'paper patching' them with a verythin stip of lubed kitchen roll (not 'hard' paper !) and also base filling them with lube too !

Not sure its making me shoot any better [embarrassed] - but I'm sure enjoying it (load/bullet 'tinkering') and finding it quite theraputic !

Any other 'tryouts' you know of with Minies ?

All the best

Roy

PS - never ended up living in Canada (still Berkshire) - but thanks for your 'Canadian' advise !!

Sir, the whole point about the Minie bullet is that it was designed NOT to be patched - it was designed to be an easy, accurate and very fast load by comparison with the predecessor patched ball.

Patching per se is either for RB [round ball] or for the later elongated target bullets in the 1850-1880 era shot from Rigby and similar match rifles of the day here in UK/Ireland and the USA/Canada, and for the wide range of continental Schuetzen-style rifles in Europe and the USA. In the USA in particular, the sport of heavy 'slug-gun' shooting is still immensely popular, with remarkable accuracy being achieved from two-piece bullets and cruciform patches....

Sorry, I digress.

As for filling up the base, well, go right on ahead, if it pleases you. It really makes no difference whatsoever, except using up the stuff. And [BTW, what do YOU use?

You have hit the main point of all this firmly on the head - '..enjoying it' and '...finding it very therapeutic', and THAT, my friend, is what it's all about.

Best graders

tac

[harricook]

Hi TAc

Maybe 'patching' is too strong a word - think thin kitchen roll that just keeps plenty of lube on the bullets - thats why I put (not hard paper) and the base fill is just more 'good ole lube' (Beeswax/Paraffin wax/Laneolic (spelling ??) Tallow) !! Tried Bore Butter & Wonderlube - both were far more expensive & no better IMHO

Remember the RFD that we met at (you were looking at S R rifles for your friend - thats twho got me started on 'patching' Minies
From his website..

"The 58 patched and lubed mini is excellent to shoot straight from the box but if you want that extra bit of consistency in competition then fill the base of your patched and lubed bullet with some of my lubricant and I am certain that you will not be disappointed with the results. (Little proviso here now, it is not going to make you a more accurate shooter it will just give the potential for a more consistent group.)"



Also have had a play with 'Target Minies' straight sided (with fine groove lube rings) rather than the usual 'ogive' ...... didn shoot no better in my hands !

...... and I never found anyone that could use those .583" H & N Minies you told me were for a Springfield - they all ended up in the post & recast into Minies for our 2 & 3 bands

All the best

Roy

[DaveJW]

Hi Tac,

I am very new to this muzzle loading and if you go back and read the thread it was not I who pi***d in your hat. Thanks for the contact for black powder, I imagined this would not be something you could post. Now I know different I will order some.

A guy at my club who has been shooting black powder since he was 12 years old (more than 50 years experience I would guess) told me not to weigh the charges but to get myelf a flask and load direct from that. Since I have scales for re-loading my .303 I will take your advice and weigh the charges out.

Many thanks,

[harricook]

Hi Dave

I weigh out 65gn charges on a scale & then put them in vials - when I run out of vials - I use roll film containers ... cheap & cheerfull - but it works !

Roy

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