Better than contemporary offerings?

[dvd]

FWB65/80/90: still the best recoilless springers ever made. Nothing like them on the market, either.
FWB300 series: the best recoilless spring rifle ever. Nothing like it on the market anymore

While agreeing that the FWB guns are well made and deserve to be up there with the best of them, the action of these guns rides on rails and technically they do recoil, its just that the shooter does not feel any recoil through the stock and into the shoulder.

For that reason, I think the truly recoilless springers such as the mod 60 and mod 75 made by Diana, as well as their pistols utilising a miniature version of these rifles' actions, are engineering marvels, truly recoilless with twin pistons cancelling out each others movement. They deserve a mention too.

As far as I know, nothing like this is produced today and it would probably be too expensive to make and sell profitably.

[red bob]

weight/balance to power.
there is a recoil but she always hits the mark due to the above.
trigger pull to let off .
excellent.
general feel and anatomical shape.very comfortable.
confidence inspired by the above,
which rifle can it be?
"o yes its the fwb 124 again "
ps and all this without a visit to the tuners!!

[Hsing-ee]

[QUOTE=;3681724]What a great post !
It's just a thought but as we all seem convinced our 'period' springer is the best shooter, why not all try and shoot the best group possible at an agreed distance ? 10 shots at 35 yards or something.
QUOTE]

Well, I have tested alot of my old favorites and nothing comes near the accuracy of the Air-Arms ProSport with the V-Mach stage one kit I bought off here. Apart from the TX200SR, which gives the same accuracy with a bit more weight. It shoots TINY groups at 35 yards, you could cover them with a 5p. The oldies just can't compete - unless you are talking Feinwerkbau 150/300 series but then you don't have the power.

[Muskett]

The only real problem with a group test is that we should all use the same scope.

The very early 4x40 Optima on my FWB Sport struggles at 35m though superior at hitting the quarry that I want hit. Better than my son's combination: a later 3-9x45 Optima Moonlighter. The scope on my Original is an Original badged Jap scope and although a 3-9x40 is not that great. My Theoben SLR88 has a 6x40 Bushnel and my Airsporter S a 3-9x40 Tasco (has a little Prohorn badge and is absolutely fantastic). My Anschutz 335 has a 4x40?? and my Venum HW77 will have a Bausch & Lomb.

For accuracy testing we should use some bench rest equipment but then again most springers are really not happy being restricted and can shoot poorly over the wrong type of rest.

To get my rifles good enough to keep most have been tweaked at some time. It doesn't take much, a loose screw, to throw that group. My scopes are chosen on what looks good and what job they should be doing. In the field 35m is a long shot and 6x40 scope is plenty. Too much mag is a hinderance. Quite a few scopes are really very bad on a springer.

I group at 22m as that is my optimum killing range for a head shot. I'm happy with a tight pellet clover from a 4x magnification. I shoot at the last pellet hole on a plain card. Some rifles shoot to where they point others only there abouts.

[Sam Vimes]

I too usually shoot at 4x or 6x, the rifles I shoot at clubs often have 4-12s or similar, but I would be picking up a fixed mag basic scope more often than not in field, one of my gripes about HFT, not being very H like..

For you perhaps, personally I use 3-9x scopes usually set on 9x for both hunting and HFT. Don't labour under the misapprehension that HFT is meant to simulate hunting any more than FT is.

[gedfinn 2]

[QUOTE=Hsing-ee;3682154]

What a great post !
It's just a thought but as we all seem convinced our 'period' springer is the best shooter, why not all try and shoot the best group possible at an agreed distance ? 10 shots at 35 yards or something.
QUOTE]

Well, I have tested alot of my old favorites and nothing comes near the accuracy of the Air-Arms ProSport with the V-Mach stage one kit I bought off here. Apart from the TX200SR, which gives the same accuracy with a bit more weight. It shoots TINY groups at 35 yards, you could cover them with a 5p. The oldies just can't compete - unless you are talking Feinwerkbau 150/300 series but then you don't have the power.

Hi, up for the10 shots shooting bit, But I think 35 yards is a little short How about 50 ! That would exemplify the recoil.
And the most important part " Open Sights " These rifles came with them & in any shootout should be used.
Whats the point of an older gun being used with a 2009 All singing & Dancing telescopic, Probably costing 4 times the original gun,
And finally A manufacturing date, IE, Made in the 1960,s
Cheers, Ged.

[Muskett]

Just spent a few hours sorting my new acquisition a Venum tuned HW 77K with all the toys. It was second hand so needed a few tweaks to get it working the way it should and the scope mounting was interesting to the point I needed an adjustable mount as the Bausch & Lomb 400 didn't have enough windage.

Anyhow, the short barrel, smooth fast action, superb trigger and high powered scope puts pellets on pellets. This springer is twice as forgiving in terms of hold as my field basic tunes FWB Sport; which is twice as forgiving as a whole host of springers out of the box. The trigger also showed up the Sports trigger though to be fair the Sports is plenty good enough for field work.

This Venum just about sums up spingers and how to get the best out of a coiled spring power plant. Short accurate barrel so the pellet isn't in there too long. Fast action to get that power behind the pellet as quickly as possible. Smoothness of the action so that the twist of the freed spring has minimum effect. Great trigger and glass and a custom stock too boot. Its also a reasonable heavy/dense weight that dampens everything down. It is a combination that on a windless day with all the time in the world you could take a shot out to 40m with confidence.

However, the Sport cost me 1/3 of the price of the Venum, is a sensible field carry weight, much faster to load and into the aim; and my field craft is able to get me within 20-25m of what I want to shoot with an airgun.

Finally, I started shooting with open sight and became very proficient with them. Its quite remarkable how great they are as they are mighty accurate. There is not much in the farmyard that can't be hit with open sights.

[Muskett]

Wind, wind, wind. However, inherently accurate a 12 ft/lbs rifle is the wind has the same effect on the pellet. The effect at 20m isn't too bad but at 30 really does make a huge difference. 30m and beyond it plays havoc; just ask your FT boys. Indoor .22 rimfire ranges are 25m which is probably a good as we can get. 25m is enough to show up a poor set up: one enlarged hole, tight cluster, open cluster or all over the place

I used to have a 30x scope for accuracy testing, not sure what I've done with it or why I sold it on. Probably its a time thing: finding enough time to do it all.

[gedfinn 2]

[QUOTE=;3684942]

Come on Ged, a 10 x at 35 yards could well yield some surprising or at least interesting results.
I'm all for more open sighted shooting, but most of the new rifles trying to compare against aren't even equipped with irons.
I don't think much pre 80s will hold it's own at 35 yards, though stand to be corrected, cheerfully

Ha ha, Your right mate, !
I got sucked into a " Old timers Shootout " I forgot they were being compared to their modern equivalent! ( More of what I wanted, Than was being offered Ha ha, )

I do have one though, That could shoot with the best, Open sights or with " Them magnifying things for bad eyes "
Sharp Ace ! Cheers, Ged.

[Silent Sniper]

what about older gun modern internals i only hunt never done any ft or hft but i do enjoy plinking down the garden ,was given an old mk3 bsa mercury some years ago in a really really sorry state chucked it in the wardrobe and forgot it until the start of the year when i decided to give this airgun tuning lark a go i have thoroughly enjoyed my play time with this gun and rather than making it worse than when i started it has become a bit of a beast and is now my no 1 gun when i go hunting and i think it would probably give most of these modern guns a run for there money i can bang constant one holers down my garden range 55 feet, drop rabbits cleanly at 35yards and am probably knocking on the 12 ft lb door the only down side with the gun is the ####e scope rail that bsa put on but am going to fit a one piece sportsmatch to it this week which should hold zero for longer than a week then i will be ready for your match but would it count as a vintage springer when internally its as good as many new ones and probably better than quite a few after all we are all tied with the same power limit ???

[Nocity]

I have a few older rifles, but come the day of Rivi’s Charity shoot I will be using my BSF S54 Bayern for the vintage/classic rifle competition.

Not my FWB Sport with a Full Maccari kit, nor my utterly gorgeous BSA Stutzens, and I don’t think my Prosport will qualify as a classic just yet. So I will use my very accurate ( agricultural looking ( IJs words, not mime)) rifle.

[I. J.]

How come no-ones mentioned ... Relum ! The Tornado has had several shouting its praises in the past when Ive decried it.

Ive already been banned from one forum this week so let me be very contentious and go for the double.

AIRSPORTER - Only the Mark 1 and 2 can apply due to the auto loading tap and gorgeous looks. The later version with their square stocks and increased plastic parts, including the RB, just dont cut it. Main fault is the usual British trigger.

WEBLEY Mk 3. - Well engineered yes but also very over rated.

VULCAN/VICTOR - Poor mans Omega due to the Wobbly Webbly barrel.

MERCURY - Only the 'S' versions cuts it again due to the Wibbly Wobbly barrel pin arrangement. Scope mounting problems on all.

BSF - The 55/60/70 (and 65 ) nice to shoot once tuned but the 54 ! (Dont forget to flush after youve used it!)

ANSCHUTZ 335 - Well engineered (German ) and nice to shoot. Low powered (in standard form) with always the doubt regarding the stock fixing arrangement.

FWB Sport - The best, once again, when tuned.

WEBLEY OMEGA - Nice. The 'Sport.

WEIHRAUCH 35 - Classic build quality. Rekord trigger (say no more ) but the Export really is too long in the barrel.

WEIHRAUCH 80 - Better suited to FAC @ 17 ft.lbs m.e.

WEIHRAUCH 95 - Poor mans 'Sport. Good trigger.

ORIGINAL 45 - Too heavy. Complicated to strip and, certainly in the RWS versions the barrel material is soft. Model 50. The early version have the looks but again tap loading/alignment problems. The 50 TO1 - The early 35 is nice.

AIR ARMS - side lever springers. Require a lot of work to make even reasonable.

WEBLEY TRACKER - Tap loader. trigger. Over rated.

MILBRO DIANA & EL GAMMO - A joke.

PUMP UPS - Just too much hard work.

GISS SYSTEM - (Original) Too complicated.

'Cat' and 'Pigeons' spring to mind. Well, its been nice knowing you.

ATB
Ian.

[hwvixen]

Nice knowing you Ian.

[Microtia]

Mikewareing; I have to agree with you on the Webley MKIII; I've owned a few and still have one and they are definitely an open sight rifle. Put a scope on and they show how poor the group size really is at ranges beyond 20m. In fact a shed load of older rifles, BSA's etc, don't group well very far out. Having said that with open sights they can do the job and a delight; especially the much much older Bell target brigade.

Scope even 80's rifles and they struggle which is why they need tuning to get the best out of them. I shoot basic tuned FWB Sports but, though they shoot very straight, its not easy and I keep my distances respectful. I sold on most of my collection because I realized I was an accuracy junky and most of the old rifles just don't deliver. However, I have a full Venumized HW77 carbine on its way so, yes, I'm still hooked on springers.

Not much beats a BSA Airsporter S or Mercury S for pure open sights classic shooting. Ergonomically they point and come to the aim better than anything; beats the Germans by a mile. But, you can't stretch the distance.
Theobens bluing just can't be beaten.
Walnut rules.

Modern stuff is very dull and if it has a spring still needs a tune. I don't own an air Arms but I'm pleased they are there. I'll have one. The rest I'll leave.

Air Arms Pro Sport. Just such a quality springer if you get a good one. Agree re the walnut, aesthetics are a big part of enjoying ownership for me. Mine sits in the corner of the room ready for pest control duties. Just looking at it is a pleasure.. How sad is that?
Webley Mk III is not particularly attractive, ergonomic, powerful or accurate. Its attraction is the mystique it had when I was young. I wasn't allowed one because it was too powerful! Airsporters and Mercurys have a timeless 70s/80s appeal if you are of that era.

Best bit with all of them is that you don't have to lock them up, and can use them when you want in the garden!

[Nocity]

I thought the mention of the BSF s54 Bayern would tempt you to join the debate, and WOW you did.