Airsporter Mk11 valuation - Response to T20

[Airsporter1st]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airsporter1st View Post

If BSA had the sense to make (in England) a top quality reproduction of these guns with top notch walnut and modern full power internals, I'm certain they'd sell as many as they could turn out even at £350 ~ £400 i.e. Prosport territory.

Quite right


You can already get full power internals for the MK2 Airsporter though.
BSA produced a retro fit piston head for these that used the later Airsporter/Mercury O ring as a seal instead of leather.
The kit is still available from Chambers but you have to send them your piston to have it fitted.

I fitted one in 1973 and so far it seems to work very well.


All the best Mick

NOTE TO GARETH WB - THIS IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO REVITALISE THE ORIGINAL VALUATION THREAD WHICH YOU HAVE LOCKED - JUST TO CONTINUE A DISCUSSION WHICH WAS DEVELOPING FROM IT.

Thanks for the info Mick. rather than up the power on an original gun though, which may make it harsh and be a bit OTT for existing components - including the stock - what I'd really like to see is the following:

• Fully adjustable two-stage trigger
• Smoother firing cycle plus consistent power around the 11 ftlb mark
• Top notch stock
• Same pop up loading tap
• Same flip up rear sight
• Scope option using proper milled grooves
• No changes to the original superb looks and handling.

As said - I'm convinced BSA could do this at Prosport money and old English quality and would sell every one they could make. Let's hope someone from BSA looks on the BBS from time to time!

[Gareth W-B]

NOTE TO GARETH WB - THIS IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO REVITALISE THE ORIGINAL VALUATION THREAD WHICH YOU HAVE LOCKED - JUST TO CONTINUE A DISCUSSION WHICH WAS DEVELOPING FROM IT.

... Not a problem .

[MarcDV]

New Airsporter MkI or MkII? My money is waiting! Upgrades are not really required, but it must retain the conical piston, hopefully with a modern seal (not an 'O' ring which is a low speed seal). Why limit the power? As long as cycling is smooth, let BSA wring a few more foot pounds out of it. FAC power would be OK. Self opening tap, sleek graceful lines, walnut or laminated stock. I reckon that it's likely a commercial proposition. Let's hope that BSA plot a business case based on 350 - 400 pounds. I'm in!

[T 20]

Quote:



Thanks for the info Mick. rather than up the power on an original gun though, which may make it harsh and be a bit OTT for existing components - including the stock - what I'd really like to see is the following:

• Fully adjustable two-stage trigger
• Smoother firing cycle plus consistent power around the 11 ftlb mark
• Top notch stock
• Same pop up loading tap
• Same flip up rear sight
• Scope option using proper milled grooves
• No changes to the original superb looks and handling.

As said - I'm convinced BSA could do this at Prosport money and old English quality and would sell every one they could make. Let's hope someone from BSA looks on the BBS from time to time!

Hi Paul

I know what your saying but I can't see it happening now that El Gamo are in charge.
The best we can do is make the most of what we already have.

The stock internals of Airsporters and Mercuries are capable of producing about 15ftlbs when tuned so producing a smooth firing cycle in them at 11ftlbs is not a problem.
Don't loose sight of the fact that John Bowkett used to get 12ftlbs from these guns with a standard spring with 12 coils removed.

I once read that the difference between a later sub 12ftlb Airsporter and a FAC Airsporter is a few thou" difference in the piston.
I found out that the few thou" mentioned were the few thou" radiused on the piston head. Machine the front face flat and the power goes up, increase the stroke a bit and the power goes up a bit more. This is how I run my everyday Mercury, but I use a tired spring in it that was removed from my Airsporter MK2 in the 1970's. This Mercury gives 605 fps with proper wasps day in day out and has done so since I put it together four years ago.

The one Airsporter which should be near to my idea of a proper Beesa is the Airsporter S but unfortunately BSA spent all the money in the wrong places.
when the S was introduced nobody wanted open sights they all wanted to fit a 'scope so what did BSA do?
They spent money on the open sights and left the 'scope grooves shallow.
Another big letdown on the S is the parallel loading tap, it was one of the worse designs ever brought in.
The above is probably why my S is stuck at the back of the gun cabinet.



Many years ago in airgunworld there was an article on a toolmaker who made his own guns for use in field target competitions. The gun he ended up with had a conicle headed piston so the transfer port was short and more efficient than a flat fronted piston. In using the conicle piston as in the early Airsporters he was able to use a low powered spring and so reduce recoil.
I don't know if he won anything with his homemade gun but Mr Ken Turner went on to design the Air Arms pro sport, so perhaps BSA got it right with the early Airsporters.


All the best Mick

[T 20]

(not an 'O' ring which is a low speed seal)

fast enough for FAC power and very very consistant though.


ATB Mick

[Airsporter1st]

Hi Paul

I know what your saying but I can't see it happening now that El Gamo are in charge.
The best we can do is make the most of what we already have.

The stock internals of Airsporters and Mercuries are capable of producing about 15ftlbs when tuned so producing a smooth firing cycle in them at 11ftlbs is not a problem.
Don't loose sight of the fact that John Bowkett used to get 12ftlbs from these guns with a standard spring with 12 coils removed.

I once read that the difference between a later sub 12ftlb Airsporter and a FAC Airsporter is a few thou" difference in the piston.
I found out that the few thou" mentioned were the few thou" radiused on the piston head. Machine the front face flat and the power goes up, increase the stroke a bit and the power goes up a bit more. This is how I run my everyday Mercury, but I use a tired spring in it that was removed from my Airsporter MK2 in the 1970's. This Mercury gives 605 fps with proper wasps day in day out and has done so since I put it together four years ago.

The one Airsporter which should be near to my idea of a proper Beesa is the Airsporter S but unfortunately BSA spent all the money in the wrong places.
when the S was introduced nobody wanted open sights they all wanted to fit a 'scope so what did BSA do?
They spent money on the open sights and left the 'scope grooves shallow.
Another big letdown on the S is the parallel loading tap, it was one of the worse designs ever brought in.
The above is probably why my S is stuck at the back of the gun cabinet.



Many years ago in airgunworld there was an article on a toolmaker who made his own guns for use in field target competitions. The gun he ended up with had a conicle headed piston so the transfer port was short and more efficient than a flat fronted piston. In using the conicle piston as in the early Airsporters he was able to use a low powered spring and so reduce recoil.
I don't know if he won anything with his homemade gun but Mr Ken Turner went on to design the Air Arms pro sport, so perhaps BSA got it right with the early Airsporters.


All the best Mick

Thanks for the insight Mick - really interesting.

I've got my first Mk11 which cost me £3 very secondhand and which I will never part with. I've also got an immaculate 0.177 Mk11 which cost me considerably more and I don't want to fiddle with.

Much as I'd love to be able to 'win' the beautiful Mk11 that prompted this thread, after reading your musings above I think I'll have to start looking for a solid old workhorse that I can fiddle with without fear!

Thanks again.

[Airsporter1st]

New Airsporter MkI or MkII? My money is waiting! Upgrades are not really required, but it must retain the conical piston, hopefully with a modern seal (not an 'O' ring which is a low speed seal). Why limit the power? As long as cycling is smooth, let BSA wring a few more foot pounds out of it. FAC power would be OK. Self opening tap, sleek graceful lines, walnut or laminated stock. I reckon that it's likely a commercial proposition. Let's hope that BSA plot a business case based on 350 - 400 pounds. I'm in!

I fancy giving one of these a try:
http://o-ring.info/en/technical%20ma...Quad-rings.pdf

[T 20]

I fancy giving one of these a try:
http://o-ring.info/en/technical%20ma...Quad-rings.pdf

They don't work very well Paul.
O rings revolve in their groove as they move down the cylinder, quad seals and solid square section rings just sit there.



All the best Mick

[keith66]

I remember some years ago there was a company called Shambam seals ltd, they specialised in high speed seals for demanding applications.
One such was a square section PTFE/Bronze impregnated seal which had an O ring built into its inside face, the O ring "energised" the ptfe ring forcing it against the cylinder. It required a split piston head as they cannot be fitted in a standard o ring groove as they wont stretch enough to get them on. It would seem the best of both worlds, there was a similar thread either here or the airgun forum a while back i am sure.

[T 20]

Quote:
[*]Same pop up loading tap

Hi Paul

Thinking about it today the rotory breach would seem a better bet than a gas tap in a production gun and would be cheaper to produce.

The rotory breach could be made automatic opening by milling a track on the underside of it in a similar patern as the indexing track on a Webley Fosbery automatic revolver cylinder.


All the best Mick

[Airsporter1st]

Hi Paul

Thinking about it today the rotory breach would seem a better bet than a gas tap in a production gun and would be cheaper to produce.

The rotory breach could be made automatic opening by milling a track on the underside of it in a similar patern as the indexing track on a Webley Fosbery automatic revolver cylinder.


All the best Mick

Makes sense Mick. For me its the auto opening aspect that I like - so any efficient means of achieving it would work for me.

I know that BSA are unlikely to ever produce such a gun again but you'd think that someone else could and would? Perhaps BTAS? After all even the name is not far out - the BTAS Airsporter? Could be like that outfit that remake the old Mk2 Jags.

[Nikkormat]

I always thought the Rotary Breech should have opened automatically. I liked it, but it seemed a wasted opportunity. I agree with the above suggestions too. We all know how good the Pro-Sport is, but it's not got the grace of an Airsporter and it's just a little too heavy.

I've had both an RB2 and a MkI Airsporter. The RB2 was soulless (I can't remember much else about it, I bought it when I was 15) and my MkI was dog rough and I didn't have the skill or inclination at the time to tidy it up. My father always swears by the MkII - I've never handled one but would quite like one eventually.

[Airsporter1st]

I always thought the Rotary Breech should have opened automatically. I liked it, but it seemed a wasted opportunity. I agree with the above suggestions too. We all know how good the Pro-Sport is, but it's not got the grace of an Airsporter and it's just a little too heavy.

I've had both an RB2 and a MkI Airsporter. The RB2 was soulless (I can't remember much else about it, I bought it when I was 15) and my MkI was dog rough and I didn't have the skill or inclination at the time to tidy it up. My father always swears by the MkII - I've never handled one but would quite like one eventually.

Apart from the convenience of BSA's rotary breech and loading tap arrangements there's also safety. No-one likes sticking their fingers in the loading ports on the Weirauchs and AA's - even when they are holding the underlever!

P.S. Definitely worth trying a good Mk1/11.

[T 20]

No-one likes sticking their fingers in the loading ports on the Weirauchs and AA's - even when they are holding the underlever!

Hi Paul

If you think that's exciting try loading a Diana 52 without wincing.



All the best Mick

[Airsporter1st]

Hi Paul

If you think that's exciting try loading a Diana 52 without wincing.



All the best Mick

Didn't know these Mick so I did a search. I could feel the pain in my fingers just looking at a picture of the open loading port.