Am I fick er wot?

[lilguy43uk]

Right, I could never get my head around the principle of using filler in a revolver to space the projectile closer to the barrel to gain more accuracy.

How does this work? The projectile still has to engage with the rifling and then travel the length of the barrel so how can the depth of seating in the chamber affect it?

I have always believed that the muzzle had the most important part to play as this was the last part to be in contact with the bullet.

Answers on a postcard please.

[middaycowboy]

In my Ruger Old Army instruction manual it says quote "as a starting accuracy load, using a pure lead .457" diameter ball is 20 grains of FFFg and sufficient filler (cornmeal) to seat the ball approximately 1/16" below the chamber mouth." unquote, I myself use filler in all my BP pistols but have been told theres no need, but as I use 777 I dont need as much powder as I would using traditional black powder, I think its a matter of you takes your choice, no doubt you will be told the opposite

[Simon G]

I disagree whole heartedly with the concept of using fillers in order to bring the ball as close to the cylinder mouth as possible. I base this on extensive testing that I did myself after getting into B/P revolvers.

I started off with advice from an old sweat after losing our cartridge handguns. I was using powder, ground rice, a ball then grease. Got the ball just below the mouth. Accuaracy was appalling. Went to Pyrodex, just the same, lousy. Then dropped the grease as I thought the filler would be enough to prevent flash over. Still not good.

777 came along and gave it a go. In the first loading data supplied, it was adamant not to use fillers but an over powder was. The change was dramatic in accuracy terms. Carried on experimenting with charge amounts in .36, .44 and .45. Came to the result that 777 with just a wad gave by far the best accuracy. Obviously, the result also showed that the ball was quite away down the chamber.

So then I got to thinking.

Firstly, powder gas, filler, ball and grease, all scooting down a barrel at 800fps...... that's a lot of cr@p. Is it any surprise that accuracy suffers then.

Secondly, the ball depth matters not a jot. For close to the mouth or half way down the chamber, the ball still has to cross the area of fresh air that is the cylinder gap, no matter how small the gap is, it's flying. So does it matter how close it is? Perhaps the argument is that it should be further down the chamber so that when the ball starts it journey, the cylinder walls act as a barrelthemselves and help true the ball up before it jumps the cylinder gap?!

On top of which, regardless of the position of the ball, both types of fired shot enter the leade of the rifling or the barrels forcing cone, truing it up anyway.......

And again, what's the most accurate revolver cartridge in regards to conventional thinking? The .38 special, 148gn wadcutter....... Have you seen how far they sit down a chamber? Even further in a .357, but will still give outstanding results.

You see, I've thought about this a lot......

But I could still be wrong!

[Jim McArthur]

I can't say from experience whether you're right or wrong, Simon: but I can say that what you're saying sure as hell makes some good sense!

Jim

[Smokeless Coal]

The logic is if the ball is too far back it starts moving forwards without twist then there is a transition from no twist to twist. If the ball is well forward it goes straight to twist.

Its a bit like a cartridge round when you load your own you seat the bullet nice and close to the rifling so it picks it up straight away.

Nothing in muzzle loading is hard and fast, what suits one shooter or gun may not suit another, part or the experience is the experimentation.

Myself I use couscous as filler and seat the ball as far forwards as I can. Its given me a massive improvement in my shots. I'm now at the point where I am hyper critical with my powder measuring and weighing my balls but funily not getting a noticable difference.

[Simon G]

The logic is if the ball is too far back it starts moving forwards without twist then there is a transition from no twist to twist. If the ball is well forward it goes straight to twist.

No, I can't see the logic in that. The ball still has to cross the cylinder gap into the forcing cone. So even if the ball is set level with the cylinder mouth it will still move and still jump the gap before it meets the rifling. Granted, the cylinger gap will be around 0.007", but when you actually look at the area of the bearing surface of a ball, it's tiny.

[Simon G]

I myself use filler in all my BP pistols but have been told theres no need, but as I use 777 I dont need as much powder as I would using traditional black powder,

You are aware that Hodgon advises against using any inert filler with 777, except for one over powder wad in M/L revolvers or a card of 0.030" in a 777 loaded cartridge?

Over pressure can occur otherwise, leading to a dangerous situation......

[slowcoach]

I thought the filler was only to take up the space in the chamber due to not many of us using the full cylinder / battle charge?? I only use 18g 777 and the rammer on my .44 NMA dosn't seat the ball anywhere near the charge. So I thought fillers to whatever extent were to prevent the air gap between charge and projectile and thus ensure a burn rather than detonation??

[Simon G]

This is the thing with 777. Unlike real BP and Pyrodex it burns very differently. Two situations which can cause excessive pressure spikes and hence dangerous situations are an air gap between the charge and the ball and too much compression.

Using a filler can cause the charge of 777 to be compressed as the depth to which everything is loaded into the chamber is not predetermined.

The only loads that are recommended by Hodgdon in a .44 Remington or Colt Army are are either 20 or 25 grains by volume and one over powder wad such as Ox-yoke. That's it.

[slowcoach]

Still the same when I was using 20 grains of filthy swiss no2. The ball would seat to the depth of the rammer without compressing or touching the powder.
Used a filler or thick wad to take up the slack. It shoots very accurately if I do my part whatever method is used so I don't think the transistion from cylinder to barrel distance is that important for the instant in time it takes.

[middaycowboy]

You are aware that Hodgon advises against using any inert filler with 777, except for one over powder wad in M/L revolvers or a card of 0.030" in a 777 loaded cartridge?

Over pressure can occur otherwise, leading to a dangerous situation......

I knew not to use any type of filler in a cartridge load with 777 but not in a revolver cylinder, so I have ordered some Ox Yoke wads and will be trying some loads without any sort of filler, just powder wad and ball, if it improves the accuracy I shall be converted, thanx for the info Simon

[Simon G]

As there does seem to be some confusion, I emailed the Hodgdon tech desk....

We only recommend the use lubricated fiber wads.

Dave Campbell
Hodgdon Powder Company
Ballistician/Customer Service
913-362-9455 Ext.117
dcampbell@hodgdon.com

[lilguy43uk]

I can see the logic in using a filler or filler wad for lighter loads in some circumstances.
Some of the earlier "hand cannons" were designed for full chamber loads and, with a reduced load, the rammer would not be long enough to seat the bullet properly without the wad, therefore using a wad would prevent an undesirable airspace behind the bullet.

There does, however, seem to be a school of thought that says that spacing the ball further up the chamber by using filler can give greater accuracy and it's this that I have some trouble accepting.

[slowcoach]

I've never personally found a differance between top of or lower down the cylinder. Its travelled whatever small variation between them in a flash ( no pun) and into the rifling and away. I think its all down to the quality of the barrel and the technique of the shooter i.e hold and follow through

[lilguy43uk]

I've never personally found a differance between top of or lower down the cylinder. Its travelled whatever small variation between them in a flash ( no pun) and into the rifling and away. I think its all down to the quality of the barrel and the technique of the shooter i.e hold and follow through

It's the nut behind the butt that counts