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Thread: Eley ammo

  1. #1
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    Eley ammo

    I am fairly new to target shooting, having spent several years vermin shooting.

    My main interest is 25 yard .22 target. I have just been included in a team or two.

    I was told by someone that Eley club were fine for practice and of course cheaper than Match. I bought 400 and have been trying them out. The results with my rifle have been all over the place and I thought that it must be me. After the last session of rubbish cards, I got down and used some Match instead. The first shot was slightly low but on centre. a couple of clicks up and three in the bull. Moved to the next target and 5shots took the centre out of the target.

    I am assuming that either the club ammo is not very good or that my rifle just does better with the Match. What does anyone else think?

    My rifle is an Anschutz match 54, which I love and IMO will out shoot me forever.

    Bob G

  2. #2
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    Match is of course a better grade than Club and goes through better quality control than Club, so each round should be more consistent compard to the one next to it. It also has the patented EPS nipple which punches a cleaner hole in the paper.

    You've fallen into the trap of thinking Match is Match is Match.
    If you look on the end, there should be two lines of numbers. The top one is the batch number, the bottom (four digit) number is the speed in fps. It's normally somewhere between 1020 and 1080.
    Eley deliberately vary these because some rifles like fast ammo, some like slow. It's to do with any number of factors - barrel length, weight, harmonics, crown condition, wear on the rifling (ok, the last two will affect all ammo, but some speeds will deal with it better than others).

    If you were pushing for the upper echelons, you can go and batch-test Tenex at Eley's factory. Anyone can do it, it costs about £40. The results are remarkable. With a batch that really doesn't like your barrel, the groups barely hold the 10-ring at 50metres - and this is with £7-8/box ammunition! On the otherhand, the best one or two batches will group inside the inner bull. It's not to do with the quality of the ammo, it's simply whether it works well in your barrel.

    Since I don't imagine you want to worry about the expense of formal batch-testing, I would suggest you try and acquire several boxes with different speeds, benchrest the rifle indoors and work out which speed ammo it seems to like. It doesn't need to be an exact science, but if you can go into your dealer and say "something round the 1055 mark", or look at a box of 1080 and say "nah, that's a waste of time for me, got anything a bit slower", then it may help your scores.
    Some batches of Match or even Team will shoot better through any given barrel than some batches of Tenex. Ultimately if you sorted out the best batch of Tenex it should be a world-beater, but the price of the ammo does not mean it is the optimum ammo for your gun!

    Money can't buy you better scores, and having the best kit won't buy you medals - some people get very hung up tweaking their kit when they should just get on the range and shoot - but that doesn't mean you shouldn't spend an afternoon finding the best combinations of rifle and ammo so that you know when you're doing your job the rifle and ammo are doing theirs. We assume that if we point the rifle at the middle the shot will go in the middle, but the truth is that simply slinging random ammo into a random barrel (even really good ammo into a really good barrel) can produce wildly variable results. It's no good if you spend £500 on ammo which (in your barrel) barely holds the 10-ring - you can shoot a technically perfect shoot, but the shots will be going out because they're not going where you're aiming them.

    That said, even if you don't have time for that, I would go with Match or Team above Club for the EPS nipple. The clean hole it gives can nudge many a marginal shot inwards when the tears in the card formed by Club or lower would have had the gauge fall out.

    Tenex is a waste of time unless you've batch-tested. Team and Match start out life trying to be Tenex and are graded appropriately when tested for consistency. Shooting a random box of Tenex is the same as shooting a random box of Match (you're just paying £3 more a box for the privilege!).
    Last edited by Hemmers; 23-10-2009 at 10:20 AM.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
    Shooting is my meditation

  3. #3
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    Thanks Hemmers for that reply. Very informative. I am aware that at least two of the members in my home club goes up to Eley and batch test for the best Tenex for their rifles, and one of them (our club small bore captain), has given me a fair bit of advice and some coaching but I have not been told about the numbers on the ammo batches before. Since the current batch of Match that I am using seems to be working well, perhaps I should attempt to try and keep to that range. If anything changes I would then follow your advice and try a range of ammo.

    Thanks again
    Bob G

  4. #4
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    Yes, if it works well then don't change it!
    I personally train with Team (for financial reasons!) and compete with Match (budget doesn't stretch to Tenex). Indeed I frequently shoot indoor 25yd cards indoors with Team. I save the Match for important cards and outdoor shoots.

    I wouldn't like to step down to Club because it's a different grade of lead to the Tenex-wannabes (it's black not silver!), and I believe burns slightly differently (i.e. dirtier. It's a different (cheaper) grade of powder I think. I could be talking on that one though). That may be paranoia, but I'm happy with the Team/Match speeds I've worked out, and Club doesn't usually offer speed ratings, so it's pot luck what you end up with. Team and Match are essentially the same thing but Match is simply rated as slightly more consistent, so it's easy to swap from one to the other from Training to Competing without getting paranoid over cleaning the barrel before and suchlike!
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
    Shooting is my meditation

  5. #5
    Verminator 66 is offline I Will Never Find Another Ewe
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    could be that your gun might be ammo fussy had the same prob with a cz with the right rounds puts 1on1
    had 1 lot that done a 5" groop at 30 yards
    thought it was clipping at first till done the same without the mod on

  6. #6
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    Hemmers thats fascinating info - thanks very much.

  7. #7
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    Mines not that fussy that I've found. I haven't formally batch-tested at Eley though.
    However, knowing people that do and seeing their print-outs, the batches that really don't agree with the gun are atrocious.
    Your average barrel will shoot well with most batches, badly with a few, and superbly with a few. Tis worth working out what those disagreeable speeds are to avoid them. Tht's probably more important than working out what shoots superbly!
    Club is always a difficult one to call though because it is a budget brand, and rarely has a speed listed, so whatever you get could be pretty decent, or could be rubbish depending on your barrel. bobkat could have simply been unlucky with the batch of Club he was using.

    Batch testing would show up whether it's fussy and whether it treats most ammo the same, or whether the good batches are very good and the bad batches very bad!

    I should add the proviso that I think everything I've said is accurate, but there are a hell of a lot of common misconceptions about ammo and barrels, and if I've passed on any of them unwittingly then sorry!
    This is one of the really good reasons to go to Eley to batch test. Not only do you get information on your barrel, but you get to spend a few hours with the range staff there who probably know more about rimfire competition ammo than all bar a very few others on earth. Sadly Bert Brookes died last year. There would perhaps have been one or two people in the world - if at all - that knew more about rimfire ammo then he did. His death was a great loss to the global shooting community. His protegees and successors are nevertheless very knowledgeable and can dispel all the major myths and misconceptions!
    Last edited by Hemmers; 23-10-2009 at 11:16 AM.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud
    Shooting is my meditation

  8. #8
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    Like he said!

    Excellent advice from Hemmers there; I change clubs fairly regularly as I move around the country and have heard a lot of 'myths' passed on to new shooters. You will undoubtedly get better results with a 'lower grade' ammo matched to your gun. The only other consideration is that a slower velocity round is less affected by wind - though I don't have the scientific capacity to explain why!

    You're absolutely right about your Match 54 outshooting you - my barrel (Anschutz 1813L) is nearly 25 years old now, but still shoots outstanding groups. It's worth paying careful attention to the bedding on older rifles, and you will also find some benefit in optimising the torque setting on your bedding bolts. One of the experienced shooters at your club should be able to help you with this. Without opening a can of worms I also advocate cleaning! You will then know you are getting the very best from your rifle, and can concentrate on improving you rather than your equipment!

    Shoot well,

    Dom.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by another_dom View Post
    Excellent advice from Hemmers there; I change clubs fairly regularly as I move around the country and have heard a lot of 'myths' passed on to new shooters. You will undoubtedly get better results with a 'lower grade' ammo matched to your gun. The only other consideration is that a slower velocity round is less affected by wind - though I don't have the scientific capacity to explain why!

    You're absolutely right about your Match 54 outshooting you - my barrel (Anschutz 1813L) is nearly 25 years old now, but still shoots outstanding groups. It's worth paying careful attention to the bedding on older rifles, and you will also find some benefit in optimising the torque setting on your bedding bolts. One of the experienced shooters at your club should be able to help you with this. Without opening a can of worms I also advocate cleaning! You will then know you are getting the very best from your rifle, and can concentrate on improving you rather than your equipment!

    Shoot well,

    Dom.
    At the moment, the rifle has shows by results, that it can shoot small tight groups and so I would not want to consider re-bedding it. Having said that, I have dismantled it to clean up and refinish the woodwork. There does not appear to be any bedding material at all. It is simply a free floating barrel.

    Regarding the torque settings on the bolts, I have been unable to find any reference for appropriate settings and have therefore used my engineering feel to tighten them up. It seems to have worked but do you think that a better performance might be achieved by doing it properly? Regarding cleaning. My habit is to run a bore snake through it after shooting and then squirt some fine lubricant down and up the barrel before putting it away in the cabinet barrel downwards. Before shooting I again run the snake through it to remove the oil. I once gave it a thorough cleaning and had to run almost totally through a box of ammo before it would consistently hit a target.

    Thanks for the advise.
    Bob G

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobkat98 View Post
    At the moment, the rifle has shows by results, that it can shoot small tight groups and so I would not want to consider re-bedding it. Having said that, I have dismantled it to clean up and refinish the woodwork. There does not appear to be any bedding material at all. It is simply a free floating barrel.

    Regarding the torque settings on the bolts, I have been unable to find any reference for appropriate settings and have therefore used my engineering feel to tighten them up. It seems to have worked but do you think that a better performance might be achieved by doing it properly? Regarding cleaning. My habit is to run a bore snake through it after shooting and then squirt some fine lubricant down and up the barrel before putting it away in the cabinet barrel downwards. Before shooting I again run the snake through it to remove the oil. I once gave it a thorough cleaning and had to run almost totally through a box of ammo before it would consistently hit a target.

    Thanks for the advise.
    Bob G
    Hi Bob,you could start with a torque setting of 24lbs[a good starting point for anschutz],go up in 1lb increments and test fire.Also the if it makes any difference to anyone the lube on the eps and tenex is tallow and not the normal type of grease as in the club,etc.
    Usually the inlets on these rifles are really good.You have what model of 54?
    So if you are considering bedding make sure it's done properly.
    Atb, Pat.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by frontend loader View Post
    Hi Bob,you could start with a torque setting of 24lbs[a good starting point for anschutz],go up in 1lb increments and test fire.Also the if it makes any difference to anyone the lube on the eps and tenex is tallow and not the normal type of grease as in the club,etc.
    Usually the inlets on these rifles are really good.You have what model of 54?
    So if you are considering bedding make sure it's done properly.
    Atb, Pat.
    Hi Pat. It's a 1980 (date code 1A). 16 series. number 178637X.

    Bob G

  12. #12
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    Bedding

    Bob,

    Just to be clear, there is no issue with the bedding method used on these stocks, and rarely a requirement for rebedding. However, it isn't unknown for oils and solvents to have softened the wood over the past 20 odd years, or frequent removal and refitting to have resulted in damage. If yours is looking solid then just ensure it is good and clean and leave it at that.

    Sounds like you might have an engineering background, in which case you probably like to fiddle! I know of some who swear by removing the belleville washers from the bedding bolts and turning up spacers (I have a spare set if you need them!). A top tip used on many of these rifles used to be to bed them on a thin sheet of balsa wood. While these may appeal to those of a technical bent, neither is likely to make a huge difference, and you're probably better off spending your time on the range (or dry firing at home)!

    Personally I wouldn't use a boresnake on a precision rifle; you would be better using a rod and ideally a boreguide (replaces the bolt and prevents accidental damage to the chamber whilst cleaning, also keeps cleaning products out of the trigger). As you have found it's not uncommon for a thorough clean to cause havoc initially!

    Dom.

  13. #13
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    I thought that the Belvill washers were introduced with the 18xx series rifles not the 16xx's. I also know several shooters who have replaced them with spacers, although I have kept my 1813 standard. If you do replace the washers then you really need to re-torque the screws, with a torque wrench, every time you shoot. I re-torque the bolts every time I shoot anyway and find 4.5 Nm works well for me. To be honest though, in my experiance, my rifle is not too fussy about the exact torque setting used as long as they are both the same so that the action "balances" equally across the recoil bar.
    As far as cleaning goes definatly get one of the cleaning rod guides and use a rod. I actually store mine with the bolt removed and de-cocked, and the cleaning rod guide in the action.

    Alan

  14. #14
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    Some great information in this thread that I have never seen discussed before. I enjoy shooting my 54 and some of the ideas here might make a difference. Many thanks to all who have contributed.

  15. #15
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    Sounds like the rifle should be good, the x at the end of the serial number means it is a picked barrel because of its accuracy.

    On the ammo front I would say, I shot a pos with Eley (brown box, £3) and last night while I used my Tenex and averaged a 98.5 over the evening, one of the guys did 99's all night with club!!!!!! I also think if you have it in your head the ammo is the problem sort it out and shoot happy. A good shot is a good shot and almost certainly result in a 10 whatever the ammo especially at short range ;-)

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