Air rifle cylinder laws?

[JollyJohn]

On reflection, this is probably not a bad idea.

[Chewy]

It might not be a bad idea, but it's totally un-enforcable. The vast majority of us with PCPs fill them ourselves. It's not like we all go to the dive shop or local RFD to get them filled, so there's no-one to refuse to fill them except ourselves...

[magicniner]

No current UK re-testing regulations apply to pressure cylinders under 2" diameter, I investigated this when first looking at PCPs
Regards,
Nick

[RobinC]

This came up some while ago when I belive some Anshutz cyinders (aledgedly! I state for legal reasons although it is well documented) went pop. It is on every one of the target gun manufacturers sites FWB, Walther, etc, and Anschutz also have a picture of a blown cylinder if any one thinks its a joke.
The Anschutz cylinders were (aledgedly) defective ones and they will replace certain cylinders manufactured at certain dates free of charge, but this then set the beaurocratic Effing Safety machine going in Germany. These cylinders originally escaped legislation due to their size but with pressures of 4000 psi and being continualy pressured up and down, and with moisture also present the risk was recognised and the directive you have seen was the result. The single biggest action was the major manufacturers setting a 10 year life, this is almost certainly for their own legal protection, not our safety.
It came to a head last year when the ISSF started to enforce it at most big events, World Cup, Europeans, etc, the Germans in particular with great enthusiasm. It is unlikely to effect any one other than serious target shooters at the higher levels, I am not sure ( this is an opinion, not fact) but I do not believe it is enforcable in UK law, I think gun cylinders are too small under our law. It has effected the resale value of older PCP target guns as the cylinders have to be inside the 10 year rule, or replaced or serviced by the manufacturers.
BUT, in the event of an incident where no direct legislation applies, the HSE may apply the "best practice" rules and this could fall with in this area, I am a retired H&S manager for a major PLC and in the knowledge of the Anschutz incidents and the European action I would advise any manufacturer to give this some serious consideration. The European action is about ass covering and if I was a manufacturer I would do the same.
Best regards
Robin

[hareng]

The 4 mentioned above are all bomb proof tubes and pass the 1 1/2 times fill ratio ie 200 bar fill actually designed and tested at over 300 bar.
More than i can say for quite a few other manufacturers UK and foreign.
If it were law think of all the 10's of thousands of recalls and add to that all over 10 years old, many with one piece tubes.

[RobinC]

Hareng
Anschutz have had a defect and have been attempting to recall for some time.
The directive is a kneejerk reaction to what has happened to Anschutz even though their problem was defective manufacture.
There will be no other recalls for out of date cylinders, no more than there are recalls for cars with out of date MoT's, the way it works is that cylinders are being checked at equipment control at competitions and past 10 year date cylinders are being failed. This is having an effect on S/H guns, on mainland Europe, guns sold as S/H must also have date left on the cylinder other wise they must have the cylinder inspected by the manufacturer (not an agent or shop) and redated or replaced. Private sale guns with out of date cylinders are being devalued by the cost involved, generaly a new cylinder.
As I said I don't believe it impacts any one here unless they compete at higher levels, BUT, I think it will soon. It won't effect the game shooter or plinker or the club shooters, until perhaps the insurance companies pick it up. I was going to put a "what if" scenario on here but decided that it would be politicaly risky and better not to do so, I am a retired professional in H&S law and my professional guidance to any gun shop would be to seriously consider whether they wish to sell S/H PCP guns with cylinders over 10 years old.
I think this sleeping dog is best left to sleep and hope that no one treads on its tail!
Best regards
Robin

[premierpistol]

As far as i've been able to ascertain the testing regulations only come into force on pressure cylinders over 500cc, most current pcp rifles will be a lot less than this, even the biggest theoben buddy bottle of 500cc will be ok. it's down to the individual to decide wether he wants his equipment to be tested. I test my own by filling them inside an old cut down 12l divers tank which failed it's test, i simply connect the filling hose to the cylinder and wrap it in bubble wrap, insert into the old tank which is then laid flat on the floor and covered in carpet mats, fill to the test pressure (290 - 300 bar) and once filled bleed off the air until it's at it's MFP (200 bar). I've never had one fail yet (touch wood) even the ones which have been modded for any reason. ie, regs fitted, guages fitted, new plugs, valves or seals etc etc.

PAUL

[RobinC]

Beam me up Scotty!!!!

[leyland]

You just can`t beat a SPRINGER........

[magicniner]

Wibble?

[mikewills8904]

you will find all you need to know in the The Pressure Systems and Transportable Gas Containers regulations 1989

any pressure vessel under 250 bar.litres (volume x pressure )does not fall within these regs

[spartan]

i think im right in saying cylinders under 500cc do not require testing, regarding the safety of older cylinders, i dont think any british manufactuer offer a pressure testing facility, i dont see how they could offer such a test, what would you test them to? unlike diving cylinders that have a reccomended working pressure and a test pressure stamped on the cylinder, air rifles do not, so what would you test them to??,

its ok for manufactures to say the RWP of a rifle is 200bar, so in theory you should be able to test the cylinder to approx 340bar with no problems, i doubt some rifles would pass that test, so what are the safety margins they build into the rifles, it would be interesting to ask them,

it seems to me manufactures seem obsessed with lightness and shot capacity, and dont give much thought to the cylinder construction, everything is done to a minimum, eg minimum amounts of threads on the valves, minimum wall thickness on the tube, if you look at the specs reccomended by the tube manufactures, some of the guns are on the limit, personaly i would rarther have a gun which weighed a pound more but had a robust cylinder

the best way i would think to test a cylinder would be how they do it at BOC ect, first visual test, inspect for internal rust and external pitting, lets face it, if there is no pitting or rust there should be no problem, my freind works in the test dept at BOC and tells me the have bottles over 50 years old still in service, steels ones though, the next test would be done with ultrasonics to look for internal flaws, the good thing about that is i does not over stress anything, but finding someone who offers that service is the problem

[RobinC]

Sparton
Yes, you and the other guy are correct, the cylinders are not covered by UK regs. The Germans regs did not cover them either, and as far as I'm aware still don't, it was down to manufacturers standards and product liability. When these cases occured the German manufactureres all got together and set a cylinder life and testing requirement, as far as I'm aware they have not published their testiing standard, but in the event of a failure of a cylinder within its 10 year life they would be called upon to satisfy the authorities that those standards were satisfactory and that the cylinders had met them to meet their obligation under product liability which is law.
I repeat again, the German manufacturers directive I do not believe is enforciable in UK law (unless it is made a EU safety directive and I have no knowledge of any moves in that direction). In fact one Italian manufacturer had given their cylinders a 20 year life so it cant be set in stone, whether they have supply problems to Germany I don't know. I am unaware if any UK gun manufacturers have a cylinder life or if cyinders from their products are date marked, if they are its up to them to demonstate its adequacy.
The original question was, does the German directive apply here, the answer is directly no, but UK safety legislation where no regulation applies uses "best practice" and the German directive could be interpreted as such. It is irrelavent as long as every thing works fine, no one can say that a cylinder is illegal because its over ten years old but if one goes pop resulting in an injury it could be up to an idividual or a business in a civil or HSE case as a defence to demonstate that they had followed all practical requirements and in the absence of regulation that may be best practice.
The problem is, the Germans are a big and influential market, and by them taking this step there is a danger that others may be forced into the same action.
This came out of Germany, they make the majority of target air guns, the ISSF have a safety rule that states that guns must comply with the manufactures safety requirements so any German gun (most) used in ISSF events must comply with the ten year rule.
Cylinders are not blowing like party ballons, as long as they don't this should stay at that level, as I said let the sleeping dog lay.
Best regards
Robin

[Raygun]

Be a bit awkward testing the AA cylinders after 10 years, or any time period.

They deform if overfilled and would not take the test pressure. What other manufacturers test to I don't know. If all cylinders are tested (not just samples) I can't recall seeing any stampings for any manufacturer. Some cylinders do have it etched on but would that be good enough ?

Do the "Bottle" rifles have tested/stamped bottles ?

ATB
Ray