Over powder wads in pistols

[DaveHol]

Hi All

I realise that most of this has been dealt with recently, but I have a couple of specific questions reagrding the use of over powder wads in a muzzle loading pistol. I just (Saturday) crossed over to the dark side and bought a second hand Euroarms Remington NMA .44. I have decided to go the route of using over powder wads rather than filler and or grease and will be using 777 powder (beacuse amoungst other reasons I regularly have to help clean the range).

Firstly I bought a pack of wads with the gun, these appear to be about 1/8th of an inch thick, how many should I use in each cylinder and should I lube them all or just one (assuming I need more than 1) and whats the best thing to lube them with. Secondly do you also need to individually lube the bullets prior to loading and if so with what (I am considering Lee liquid alox as this seems to be fairly easy to use and get hold of).

Thanks in advance for any help.

Regards

David

[acmsarh]

You have probably got ox-yolk wonder wads or a copy have a search for ox-yolk wonder lube but my personal preference is 6-8mm thick wads and 50% beeswax and 50% crisco ( lard).

[bryantanthonydp]

I have found that 21 gr of powder with a dry wad followed by a lube wad works very well.

[harricook]

Hi David

Welcome to the 'Dark Side' !!!

I have posted my experiences a few times on here - so if you have already read this I apologise !



I have had a Pietta NMA & now a Ruger Old Army (which I have to say is the dogs danglies !)

I now load 18gns of TS2 in my ROA with a 457 cal ball - & at the mo am experimenting with wads instead of an inert 'filler'

I'm trying between 1 and 4 dry (unlubed) 1/8" 100% hard wool wads (0.36gm/c3 hard F1 grade) to bring the ball up the cylinder.

I occasionally put the last wad in 'lubed' - or if I cant be ars*d to lube any - I squirt a little Allwoods Black Powder lube out of an old syring onto the top of the ball/bullet

However ! - it doesnt seem to make much difference in (my) grouping/accuracy if I use 1 or 4 !

I used to buy Ox Yokes - but at around £5.50 /100 - putting 3 or 4 in each cylinder would bankrupt me.

I had a press made in the states & now import my own felt from India & turn out my own wads

I have tried all thicknesses from 1/8 thru to 1/2" - the thicker are obviously easier to use (and make !!) but the wastage when I punch them makes it prohibitive - so I'm back to 1/8" & a tired arm ..

.....and on the subject of Alox - it technically does nothing for BP/soft lead shooters and my friend that casts hard lead bullets tells me that (and tells me off to) quite often !!... but....... I still lube my ball & bullet with Alox too ......

All the best

Roy

PS - just seen the Marlin 45 in your sig . envious ..

[DaveHol]

Thanks everybody for the info I actually managed to get down the range Wednesday night and make with the big bang

Using approx. 18 grains of 777 (using a lee scoop measure just for testing)and a single wad the gun worked flawlessly and I even managed to hit the target about 50% of the time. The gun is shooting about 6" to 8" high at 25m so actually getting a good point of aim was a little tricky but once I can get some consistent measured loads (small test tubes on order) hopefully I will be able to work up a load that shoots a bit lower.

Someone at the range also pointed out that I will probably get a better result with .454 balls as I'm currently using .451 which are a resonably tight fit in the cylinder but they are only shaving a very thin ring of lead apparently indicating they may be a bit small?

The other slight issue I had is the CCI No. 11 caps I have are extremely loose on the nipples, in fact you have to give them a bit of a squeeze before putting them on or they fall straight off! Again one of the black powder shooters at the range was saying that the CCI caps are not that brilliant (although once I got them to stay on they worked every time). Any advice on a better make would be appreciated or could they be the wrong size?

Anyway thanks again for the advise, and by the way Roy the Marlin's the limited edition 24" octagonal barrel and they'll have to prise it from my cold dead fingers

Cheers

David

[Simon G]

Dave,

I'll post my view, which has been posted here before and some didn't like it.....

With Pyrodex, chop and change your loads, wads, fillers and whatever, anyway you want. Pyrodex behaves exactly like real BP.

777 is a different beast entirely. Yes, it is designed for M/L but behaves more like a nitro powder in regards to pressure spikes and sensitivity to loading. Particularly in regards to the powder tower height and compression of the load.

When it first came out, I exchanged many an email with Hodgdon about 777 and again confirmed it recently when an argument developed with the secretary of my club and the use of 777.

Hodgdon state that the only safe loading of 777 in revolvers is EXACTLY the loads they have developed. Anything else could lead to destruction of the revolver, injury or death....... their words.

The only recommended load for your Remmy is either 20 or 25 grains/by volume of 3F 777, with one Ox-yoke Wonder Wad or equivilent, with a .454" ball.

[Smokeless Coal]

I heartily agree that 777 is a different beast compared to pyrodex or BP.

One of the good things is that you can just use alloxed balls with no other lube. You use lubed wads or bore butter or both with BP/pyro to keep the fouling level down but withh 777 there is no fouling so why use it.

I know Hodgdons will say stick to their loads but all powder producers will say that to cover their butts in litigation cases, the yanks like them.

Originally Hodgdons said 777 was like for like same as BP by volume but shooters who first used it reported velocities much higher than with BP. Seems it produces same energy but as we know it burns faster.

I prefer to listen to the shooters carrying out years of field tests as how to use this powder safely and for best results. The 17% less by volume has been accepted by Hodgdons and I think their data now says 15% less powder.

The critical thing is to not have an air gap and to not compress the powder. Variations in compression would throw all predictability out the window.

A "buffer" between bang and ball aids accuracy and Hodgdons insist a wonderlubed wad.

My own preference is a lower load, less bang for much the same reason as we used to use .22 short in pistol competition. My load is 17.3grn by volume (plus the 17% means its performing like just over 20grn BP). With just a lubed wad this would be way down in the cylinder so I use no wad but a filler (couscous because it will compress before the powder does) to place the ball just below the face. Regular 3" groups at 25m satisfies me with a bad day 6" groups. And no snotty slimey scum down our brand new indoor range.

And I agree with the earlier poster to go with .454 balls and get more contact area on the rifling.

[Simon G]

I prefer to listen to the shooters carrying out years of field tests as how to use this powder safely and for best results.

777 hasn't been out that long, comparatively.

When loading cartridges would you drop below the minimum or exceed the maximum? Would you fill the case with other crap? Ostensibly that's what you're doing......

[Smokeless Coal]

Its been in use for over 12 years in America

The only recommended load for your Remmy is either 20 or 25 grains/by volume of 3F 777, with one Ox-yoke Wonder Wad or equivilent, with a .454" ball.

By you Simon

(plus the 17% means its performing like just over 20grn BP). recomendations with my pistol are 20-30grns BP

By me

So the load to produce the energy is within safe limits the only difference with my load is an alternaive inert filler, wheres your problem?

[Simon G]

the only difference with my load is an alternaive inert filler, wheres your problem?

There. Inert fillers are specifically guided against by the manufacturer. This is because of the pressure spikes that can occur with 777 if either compressed too much or not enough. All of the variables you can not possibly keep close to the "original" when using a "powder on top of a powder, pressing by hand". The result could be catastrophic.

You know the risks and you have made your choice in light of the possibilities. A man brand new to M/L pistols is looking for guidance, get him to stick by the "rules" until his confidence and knowledge increases and he can then make his own decisions on how he wishes to carry on.....

[lilguy43uk]

The other slight issue I had is the CCI No. 11 caps I have are extremely loose on the nipples, in fact you have to give them a bit of a squeeze before putting them on or they fall straight off! Again one of the black powder shooters at the range was saying that the CCI caps are not that brilliant (although once I got them to stay on they worked every time). Any advice on a better make would be appreciated or could they be the wrong size?

I use CCI with no problems at all. You might need to go to No. 10s though if you find 11s loose.

[Smokeless Coal]

A wad is also an inert filler, it too can be compressed or left very loose over powder.

If you go to Eley with your match .22 rifle you can spend ages going through their range to find the best for your particular gun. The variations go down to where one batch of the same type is noticably different from the next.

So is one type of wad the same as the next? Is their felt supply perfect and repeated? How about the lube is that more accuratly made than an Eley Tennex? Of course its not, there are variables we have to accept.

I have yet to see ballistics tables or pressure tests for all the guns, powders, fillers, wads, atmospheric variations, contact area of projectile, depth of seating, brand of primer/cap, viscocity of lube ad infinitum that we introduce.

I know it was a newcomer question about wads but you choose to suggest my loading is unsafe because I choose to fill the half inch gap between powder and ball with filler because the recommended eight thick wad does not create an accurate load for me.

If I follow the recommendations my ball is seated half inch from front of cylinder and I get groups 12 to 18". Ball just below face I get 3 to 6" groups, so which would you choose to shoot?

[Simon G]

I know it was a newcomer question about wads but you choose to suggest my loading is unsafe because I choose to fill the half inch gap between powder and ball with filler because the recommended eight thick wad does not create an accurate load for me.

If I follow the recommendations my ball is seated half inch from front of cylinder and I get groups 12 to 18". Ball just below face I get 3 to 6" groups, so which would you choose to shoot?

Really, I think this is more to do with you do not like being questioned.

777 produces higher pressures than B/P or Pyrodex and cannot be used the same. Hodgdon developed specific SAFE loads in specific revolvers. The load and the one wad in the chamber of the named revolver, fulfil the criteria that allows it's SAFE use. Over compression or not enough compression produce DANGEROUS pressure spikes.

This is not something I've made up, this is what has been stated by Hodgdon. I imagine they would know.......

So, if you load the recommended load and it is highly inaccurate in your revolver. Simple. Your revolver is not suited to using 777. If you want to use other fillers and seat a ball as close to the cylinder mouth as possible, either use Pyrodex or real B/P. Producing a potentially dangerous loading in your revolver for the sake of accuracy is pure folly. Folly which may destroy your gun, hurt you, or God forbid hurt someone else.

Take the advice and be pragmatic about it.

[Smokeless Coal]

Hmm, my revolver like most modern replicas quite clearly says along the barrel "BLACK POWDER ONLY".

The paperwork I have with it is old and says, use no substitute (pretty obvious they mean dont use nitro powders)

So am I using it outside its proof contraints?

I'm confident that my loading is safe. The consistent grouping satisfies me that the bang is good and repeatably the same with no wild variations in muzzle velocity. I weigh my powder to point one of a grain and measure my filler so its volumetrically all the same. It's not allowed in competition because nit pickers dont like the fact its not holy black.

No way am I going back to black nor changing my loading regime. I shoot to put my best onto paper not make smelly clouds of smoke or a bigger bang or snotty slippery scum on the floor.

There are no charts from Hodgdons indicating pressure spikes, all you get from them is a standard response of dont use anything else. Theres no mention of different tightness of ball or whether conicals produce unsafe pressures.

Hodgdons say reduce powder by 15% to match BP, otherwise they boast the fact that it gives higher velocities for hunters when used as a one to one alternative to goex.

My only advice for new users is dont compress or leave an air gap (much the same as you keep repeating) and dont be suckered into loading to the max.

Oh and never use it in a flash pan because it does not ignite easily in air.

[Simon G]

I'm confident that my loading is safe. I weigh my powder to point one of a grain .

Well there's a contradiction. B/P and substitutes are NEVER weighed, they are used by volume.

Listen Ted, I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you over this, but, I really think you need to re-think. Perhaps you don't realise, but you are very well known on a number of forums and I also know a couple of blokes that are in your club. Everyone says you're a nice bloke, good company but a little dogmatic. Which is what I believe you are being now.