Calling all BSA pre-war underlever collectors...

[Lakey]

Hi all,

This morning I was reviewing some of my airgun stuff,stored on my computer. amongst the many pictures and documents that I have, I came across a BSA published manual (originally posted on this site by David (aka Troubledshooter), detailing the correct loading procedure for the BSA underlever air rifle of the day. Now I guess that this document dates from around 1906/7, as the BSA shown on the cover seems to lack the strengthening fences on the bayonet underlever.

Here is the front cover of the document, showing a BSA Air Rifle on the cover.

http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/h...d3e8e56_ga.jpg

Now I ran though each of the pages, detailing the correct cocking and loading procedure for the rifle.

here are a couple of pages as an example

http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/h...44fb609_ga.jpg

http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/h...70fe175_md.jpg

Nothing unusual there you might say........ Well I agree

However a couple of pages further on I noticed the trigger block and trigger guard arrangement of the gun shown is totally unlike any other BSA underlever that I have ever seen

It seems to be similar in shape to the Greener designed one featured on the Lanes Musketeer Air rifle, however not exactly the same?

Here is the picture showing the unusual trigger block, trigger guard and trigger profile

http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/h...0bc000c_md.jpg

now my question is quite simply this. Have any of you seen a similar trigger guard/trigger block arrangement on a pre WW1 BSA underlever before?

I for one have never seen this before, and I have never heard mention of this arrangement before.

Is this new to BSA collecting science ????? or has someone spotted this before?


Any comments most welcome


All the best

Lakey

[olivercromwell]

Ask David - I believe that is him in the pictures.......

[Garvin]

Interesting Lakey! Well spotted. The gun on the front cover seems to have the familiar trigger block. I suppose the one being demonstrated must be a prototype, which seems odd in a manual designed to accompany the rifles we are familiar with. Could it be that as BSA were contemplating their own refinements to the LJ design they tinkered with the idea of a redesigned trigger block/trigger? I wonder if John Knibbs would have an explanation?

[Lakey]

hi Garvin,

Yes I suppose you are right, it could well be a prototype, which was grabbed at the last moment, after the shout went up for a rifle for some photogaphic work.
I am very familiar with the established and well known sequence of trigger guard improvement - starting with the early long tang cast trigger guards, then following on those with the cast dovetailed rear with the small locating peg, then the guards with the large locating peg, and then finally with the pressed sheet metal guards of the post WW1 'Standards'.

However it would be interesting to speculate how they arrived at such a wierd design.

If you look closely, you can see that there is next to no trigger block in the conventional sense, meaning that the trigger mechanism must be in the compression cylinder, The stock looks like it has been altered and cut back, and there is a fattened area immediately infront of the wooden stock which maybe acts as a transitional spacer between cylinder diameter and that of the stock (or conventional trigger block) . The rearward rake of the trigger is different as is the profile.

All in all , a very strange variation to the normal BSA design.

lakey

[Lakey]

I had first thought that this 'prototype' was maybe submitted as a way of cost saving by cutting down on machining costs, however if you look closely at the picture, you can see that the bend of the trigger guard is pinned into the upper bit which looks as it is welded onto the lower edge of the cylinder. Also the cylinder end cap has maybe been added, so as to give sufficient metal for the stock bolt thread? if that is accepted then there are not that many machining savings??

The trigger pivot pin can clearly be seen, alsong with maybe a second pin for a separate sear???
If so then this trigger mechanism is way ahead of its time. Conventional BSA's of this period only had a one piece trigger/sear combined.

The backward rake of the trigger reminds me of the service rifle of the period and can clearly be seen on the Millitary pattern Air Rifle, that came a few years later.

Anyone got any more comments about this?

Lakey

[Josie & John]

Hi Lakey,
I recall John Atkins commented on the unusual trigger block around the time these booklets were reproduced with green covers around 20 years ago and like you, said it reminded him of the Greener patented Musketeer trigger. I've never seen one on my travels nor any reference to one, other than in BSA booklets. Don't know of any patents either. Sorry, I haven't really helped have I?
One to look out for.
John

[edbear2]

Photoshop?

















Sorry, couldn't help myself!.......another blank here I am afraid, maybe Mr Knibbs will know?

[Lakey]

Hi Lakey,
I recall John Atkins commented on the unusual trigger block around the time these booklets were reproduced with green covers around 20 years ago and like you, said it reminded him of the Greener patented Musketeer trigger. I've never seen one on my travels nor any reference to one, other than in BSA booklets. Don't know of any patents either. Sorry, I haven't really helped have I?
One to look out for.
John

I might have guessed that Mr Atkins got there first........


Talking about Mr Atkins, when is he going to put all his collecting articles into one book. It is sure to be a best seller!!!

[Josie & John]

I might have guessed that Mr Atkins got there first........


Talking about Mr Atkins, when is he going to put all his collecting articles into one book. It is sure to be a best seller!!!

Hi Lakey,
I'm guessing John does not own the copyright to the articles he has written over the years and Archant currently do. Prior to that it would have been Romsey Publishing, so with the current interest in all things vintage, now may be a good time to ask! It would certainly make for a very interesting read. I have most back issues archived, so if you're after anything specific, please let me know.
Kind Regards,
John

[Lakey]

Hi Lakey,
I'm guessing John does not own the copyright to the articles he has written over the years and Archant currently do. Prior to that it would have been Romsey Publishing, so with the current interest in all things vintage, now may be a good time to ask! It would certainly make for a very interesting read. I have most back issues archived, so if you're after anything specific, please let me know.
Kind Regards,
John

Thankyou John that is a very kind offer.

I agree with you ,that with all the current high level of interest in vintage airguns now would be a perfect time maybe, for the publishers to release a compilation of some of their vintage airgun, articles from their archives. You only have to look at how quickly John Griffiths Air pistol book, and the re-printed Bruce book on Webley Pistols sold out to see that there is demand in the market right now.
All that we need is an industry insider (a bit like yourself maybe ) to have a word with the publishers and see if they are up for it ?

Lakey
I hadn't thought about it but now you mention it I should have realised that copyright passes from the author to the publisher in these cases

[Josie & John]

Hi Lakey,
I'll have a word but ask that anybody else reading this thread does the same. That'll show how much interest there is in such a project.
Kind Regards,
John

[Troubledshooter]

I've just spoken to John Atkins, and I'm afraid there is no immediate prospect of his articles appearing in book form, even though he does own the copyrights.
This book idea has been floated several times over the years, but there would be so much work involved in collating and updating many years worth of articles, that it is not something John would currently contemplate, as he does have many other interests, apart from air guns, for which he also writes articles.

[Arch.Stanton?]

When I asked at the mags re retaining copyright , its the Author and not Archant (or previous Romsey )....that own the copyright . These days what with the ease of printing in low volume + hi quality material someone with a hi end scanner and laser printer could reproduce this older material - at a minimum a good basic ring bound booklet could be achieved (minimum cost /reasonable price ).
At the higher end , when I see auction catalouges produced to a technical standard and print finish and given out free that is miles ahead of the coffee table tomes we used to buy 20 years ago , there is little reason why a bound full colour product could not be self published for a few grand .......at a reasonable £25 or so rrp they would soon sell out . Pre advance paid orders or a donwpayment scheme could negate the running costs ......I'm sure most of us would be glad to risk a tenner each to help put this into motion ....