Automatic Target Project

[Rob M]

I've had some thoughts about this, it's something I've been thinking about for a year or two, but sadly I have only got as far as making the box and a steel "bell target" face so far. I was going to have a plate behind the hole in the centre of the target that tips back when hit and activates a reed switch, which activates a small geared motor that resets the falling plate. The shaft from the motor will have a round cam on it with a microswitch that keeps the motor on for a while to enable it to return to the starting position after each hit and lights a flashing LED to indicate a hit.

Maybe I've missed something but that seems like the simplest way to me.

[Fred]

This is the one you are on about.

http://www.promatic.co.uk/product-sharp-shooter.aspx

I think the targets are about £500 EACH!!

It does look very well engineered though.

I would think a homemade multi target system with some of the ideas above could be made for a fair bit less than this. But would need a bit of thought about the equipment and programming. It would probably not be as durable either. I have not even though about making it weatherproof yet!

Mark

They wouldn't need to be weather proof as they will be in an indoor shooting range.

Cheers

[AR1500]

Very interesting stuff, will be keeping an eye on this thread.

[Fred]

Quite easy, perhaps the servo controller that Mark used would be the easiest option but I'm not familiar with the programming language used, looking at the code I wouldnt imagine its that hard.
Using the controller I use would be quite easy (but isnt anything if you know how!) its just a matter of something to detect the drop of the target, then when that happens something to pop it back up again. The system I use uses 2 servos for the target to go up and down, the reason I used 2 was to make the mechanics easier.
One servo simple pulls a magnet on a spring to one side and thus releases the target and allows it to "stand up" the second one pulls it down.
Cost wouldnt be immense I wouldnt have thought - servos that do the job for about £10 or so each (depending on the weight of the target and how much torque is needed to lift / drop it) Heaver target = more torque needed = more £££.
Sensors to detect the target dropping, perhaps a simple microswitch would do if it was dome in such a way as to not directly whack the switch. A controller board and a few bits and bobs on top probably brings the total to under £100 at a rough guess.
Making them pop up when you want can be easier or more difficult, switches connected to the target/controller via a cable would be cheap but messy, but remotely it starts getting more difficult and more expensive.

My thoughts of course, maybe someone has an easier solution.

Thanks for all this help.

The problem is that I'm not very mechanically/electrically minded. For instance, I don't know what a Servo is and I don't get the Codes at all!

When you say it would be under £100 roughly, would that be per knockdown or for all seven?

Basically, what I am looking for is knockdown targets which automatically come up when hit. It would also be a big bonus if I had a option so when they are hit, they stay down.

If I could get a controller which let me choose which targets come up at what time then that would be fantastic, but somehow I think I that would be to hard to make and to expensive.

By all the confusing talk you are doing, I am guessing you need a quite good mind of electrics before even starting this project?

I would be using the targets at 25 yards indoors, so being weatherproof is not a problem.

I would want them to be reliable, so they don't randomly stop and be a pain in the arse.

Cheers

Fred

[eggplant]

Hi,

Some know how of mechanical workings would be useful, if the targets are to just pop back up when hit then that makes life a lot easier - minimal programming (if any - I'll have to think) needed. How are your targets held in the down position? magnets?

A servo is basically a device that has a motor and some gears and other stuff inside which allows it to be controlled precisely (these are used in model planes,cars,boats etc) and can be rotated by the smallest fraction if need be. They are also strong for their size. Take a look at Marks youtube link, the servo is the small black thing with the white cross shaped plastic thingy on top, as you will see it rotates each way - once you have something that can do this then its "just" a matter of connecting it to your target via a linkage or whatever to make the target go up and down. The downside is, they need a controller, as in my earlier post, perhaps a model radio control unit although most of the cheapo ones are only 4 channel. It would be easy to take the transmitter apart and stick the "innards" in a box with some labels on 1-4.
I have taken a couple of pics of my setup which will hopefully explain things a little better.
Thinking about it now, my one if there is no magnet will pop back on its own (as in my crappy video where I hit it at an angle with the screwdriver) so thats actually that problem solved ! Just dont hold it down and it will come back up ! (but no delay) there has to be another (simple) way around this, maybe the motor with a cam on it idea would work, maybe continually rotating would do a better job than it just bouncing back as there could then be a bit of a delay in the target coming back up. I'll have a proper think about it tomorrow. There must be a simple that you can set something up without having to know allsorts of technobabble that you dont want to know !

The above is just my thoughts, I do have a habbit sometimes of overcomplicating things and hopefully someone can come up with something easy to set up, in the meantime I'll see if I cant think of something.
The £100 figure I guestimated was for all of them.

The 3 pics below are part of my prototype, they show the servo in different positions (target up and down) and the way I connected the servo to the target. The metal target when hit sticks to a magnet, the magnet is on a spring and another servo pushes this out of the way to release the magnet allowing the target to go back to its original upright position, I used a seperate servo for this as it seemed easier and more versatile than trying to get one servo to raise and lower the target without taking shock from the pellet (hope that makes sense!) The magnet can just be seen at the top right of the 2nd photo.
Hope that all makes sense !

servo with target in up position

servo in down position

servo linkage

[edit]

Theres a fair bit of DIY ish stuff on the photos, this is simply because it moves left to right, if it didnt then there would be much less "clutter"

[Cones]

I have just seen this posted on another shooting forum.

http://www.polymythic.com/2009/01/ar...-target-range/

It uses the Arduino controller card again with a web interface so it can be controlled from an Iphone (Or any web connected PC)

I like the idea of a 5 target turning target system with the standard times programmed into it.

I think a larger Pololu servo unit with a few digital inputs to select the different timing routines and a start pushbutton along with 5 servos and some lightweight wire target holders could be a starting point.

Thanks

Mark

[London Lad]

Wow that's really sorted well. Inspiration for you C

[eggplant]

Moving them sideways would make life much easier, the only issue there is for falling targets, all depends what you want I suppose. As I said in an earlier post one of my ideas was to have a interchangable tray on my moving one, I might also look at incorporating side one ones too. The motor part is finished, just on with making a new "modular" tray, I want to have it at least testable by weekend if poss. Its always good to get other ideas from other people.

[Fred]

Hi,

Some know how of mechanical workings would be useful, if the targets are to just pop back up when hit then that makes life a lot easier - minimal programming (if any - I'll have to think) needed. How are your targets held in the down position? magnets?

A servo is basically a device that has a motor and some gears and other stuff inside which allows it to be controlled precisely (these are used in model planes,cars,boats etc) and can be rotated by the smallest fraction if need be. They are also strong for their size. Take a look at Marks youtube link, the servo is the small black thing with the white cross shaped plastic thingy on top, as you will see it rotates each way - once you have something that can do this then its "just" a matter of connecting it to your target via a linkage or whatever to make the target go up and down. The downside is, they need a controller, as in my earlier post, perhaps a model radio control unit although most of the cheapo ones are only 4 channel. It would be easy to take the transmitter apart and stick the "innards" in a box with some labels on 1-4.
I have taken a couple of pics of my setup which will hopefully explain things a little better.
Thinking about it now, my one if there is no magnet will pop back on its own (as in my crappy video where I hit it at an angle with the screwdriver) so thats actually that problem solved ! Just dont hold it down and it will come back up ! (but no delay) there has to be another (simple) way around this, maybe the motor with a cam on it idea would work, maybe continually rotating would do a better job than it just bouncing back as there could then be a bit of a delay in the target coming back up. I'll have a proper think about it tomorrow. There must be a simple that you can set something up without having to know allsorts of technobabble that you dont want to know !

The above is just my thoughts, I do have a habbit sometimes of overcomplicating things and hopefully someone can come up with something easy to set up, in the meantime I'll see if I cant think of something.
The £100 figure I guestimated was for all of them.

The 3 pics below are part of my prototype, they show the servo in different positions (target up and down) and the way I connected the servo to the target. The metal target when hit sticks to a magnet, the magnet is on a spring and another servo pushes this out of the way to release the magnet allowing the target to go back to its original upright position, I used a seperate servo for this as it seemed easier and more versatile than trying to get one servo to raise and lower the target without taking shock from the pellet (hope that makes sense!) The magnet can just be seen at the top right of the 2nd photo.
Hope that all makes sense !

servo with target in up position

servo in down position

servo linkage

[edit]

Theres a fair bit of DIY ish stuff on the photos, this is simply because it moves left to right, if it didnt then there would be much less "clutter"

Thanks a lot Eggplant! I sort of understand it now.

The targets we use are just standard knockdown targets. Same as these here: http://www.nockover-targets.co.uk/field_targets.html
You have to use a string to pull them back up.

The thing I don't understand is the 'Controller' part. Would I be able to control the targets with this (making them go up and down) or is it just there because they need something to connect to (so it has no real use)?

When you say '4 channel' does this mean only 4 servos would work?

I don't mind if there is a delay on bring the targets back up. Say if the target was brought back up in about 5 seconds?

Thanks for taking the time to explain it!

This is what I would ideally want to do (but I doubt it is possible?):

Have all 7 targets made so they are remote controlled. I have a box with 7 separate switches. When for example you push switch number 7, number 7 target would come down. It would fall down when shot then I could bring the target back up manually by flicking the switch.

One problem I can think of is getting the switch to return back, so I can push it forward again? Maybe you could set it up that any target falls and stays down when shot, and to bring the target up you can push the switch either way.

Cheers

Fed

[eggplant]

Hi,

Glad I managed to explain a bit.
Servos arnt just like motors/lights/whatever that you can simply apply power to to make them move, they need a series of signals - this is done by a controller of some sort. In the case of a radio control system, the reciever does all the technical bits so when the operator moves the control part, the reciever picks up the signal and moves the servo accordingly. The way Mark and I (and the other guy on the previous reply) did it was to program the servo movement ourselves so we could have more control. a 4 channel will indeed only control 4 servos. There are radio systems with many more than 4 but then of course the price goes up. I dont have one of the targets you have, I only have one like this top one that I got to see how they actually worked. It may be that there is an easier way to reset your one? Someone else may have one and be able to suggest something. If you could imagine a lever or motor being able to move the target up and down and work a way for it to do that then the rest is fairly simple as it is just a matter of making a servo move. I can video the way my prototype goes up and down if that would be any help.

[Fred]

Hi,

Glad I managed to explain a bit.
Servos arnt just like motors/lights/whatever that you can simply apply power to to make them move, they need a series of signals - this is done by a controller of some sort. In the case of a radio control system, the reciever does all the technical bits so when the operator moves the control part, the reciever picks up the signal and moves the servo accordingly. The way Mark and I (and the other guy on the previous reply) did it was to program the servo movement ourselves so we could have more control. a 4 channel will indeed only control 4 servos. There are radio systems with many more than 4 but then of course the price goes up. I dont have one of the targets you have, I only have one like this top one that I got to see how they actually worked. It may be that there is an easier way to reset your one? Someone else may have one and be able to suggest something. If you could imagine a lever or motor being able to move the target up and down and work a way for it to do that then the rest is fairly simple as it is just a matter of making a servo move. I can video the way my prototype goes up and down if that would be any help.

Ah, It is becoming more and more clearer to me know thanks too your explaining. I am still a little bit confused though, but that's no surprise!

I don't suppose you would mind making a video of the way your prototype goes up and down?

If I use a motor or lever, I am assuming I would still need to use a servo?

So is this right: The controller doesn't actually do anything as such, it just receives a signal from a servo then sends one back, possibly to another servo? Maybe something a bit like a telephone mast which lets us have phone signal?

Thanks,

Fred

[Fred]

Hi,

Glad I managed to explain a bit.
Servos arnt just like motors/lights/whatever that you can simply apply power to to make them move, they need a series of signals - this is done by a controller of some sort. In the case of a radio control system, the reciever does all the technical bits so when the operator moves the control part, the reciever picks up the signal and moves the servo accordingly. The way Mark and I (and the other guy on the previous reply) did it was to program the servo movement ourselves so we could have more control. a 4 channel will indeed only control 4 servos. There are radio systems with many more than 4 but then of course the price goes up. I dont have one of the targets you have, I only have one like this top one that I got to see how they actually worked. It may be that there is an easier way to reset your one? Someone else may have one and be able to suggest something. If you could imagine a lever or motor being able to move the target up and down and work a way for it to do that then the rest is fairly simple as it is just a matter of making a servo move. I can video the way my prototype goes up and down if that would be any help.

What do you mean by program? Also, I don't understand what you mean by 'to program the servo movement ourselves so we could have more control'.

Sorry for all these questions! You are probably getting annoyed by now!

I really appreciate it though

[eggplant]

Hi,

I'll do a vid in a bit.

The servo part maybe I havnt explained well. Imagine a motor - you apply power to it and it turns. Attatch something to the end of it and that turns round and round too. A servo is a bit different, it does contain a motor but simply applying power to it wouldnt do anything. IT also contains other gubbins that allow it to move to a fairly precise position (think model car steering or plane controls, has to be quite precise else it would all end in tears lol). A servo has to recieve a series of signals if you like to make it go to the position you want it to, in my example photos you can see it moves about 90 degrees or so (I think!) to pull the target down. Someone or something needs to tell the servo what position it has to move to, the stuff inside the servo works out the position, so you (or the controller to be more precise) says "go to 45 degree position) and off it goes to that position, you then tell it to go to say 80 degrees, and off it goes, same position every time you tell it. The "problem" is telling the servo whatposition it needs to go to, this is where the controller part comes in. The board Mark used needs programming, as does the one I use - not too hard but of course anything is difficult if you dont know how, and anything is easy if you do !. That is why I suggested a radio control system, although the controls are variable (think steering, left and right - or up and down in our case) it isnt hard to rip out the contents of a radio control transmitter and stick the insides in a box replacing the controls with buttons - would need to solder a few wires thats all. 90 degree movement would be easist to do.
The boards Mark and I use are much more versatile as we can accurately tell the servo what position to go to, when to go there, and how fast even (within the speed capabilities of the servo) and we can of course also program any time delays etc. Its a pity you dont live nearer, we could have probably got one going by now !
Hope that explains the servo a bit better, vid will be here soon. And Im not geting annoyed !

Calv

[Cones]

What do you mean by program? Also, I don't understand what you mean by 'to program the servo movement ourselves so we could have more control'.

Sorry for all these questions! You are probably getting annoyed by now!

I really appreciate it though

Hi Fred,

I will try and explain it a little more.

This is my servo and its controller in action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-IM87imTGY

The bit about programming the servo is really about programming that little electronics board it is connected to.

The board is set to move the servo to a programmed position when the micro switch is closed after a preset delay.

The code to do this is shown in post three of this thread. But all it is, is a set of instructions of what to do to the servos position and in what order.

The control board is flexible in that it can be effectively rewired by just changing the control program that I write on the computer using the supplied software and then load into it with a USB cable.

It is a bit like programming your video to record something, but with movements of the servo instead of the time.

The controller has six channels than can be used as servo outputs or as switch inputs. You can buy bigger boards that will do 18 channels, then you could have multiple servos and multiple switches, or push buttons to reset All the targets together or whatever you want.

The normal £12 servos only produce 4kg of pull at 1cm distance from the centre of the shaft. So it is not strong enough to work with a standard Nockover target. You would need a lighter plate for it to be able to lift it. Stronger servos get a lot more expensive quickly.

I wanted the target to be similar to the one shown at the start of this thread or something along the lines or a row of silhouettes.

Just ask away if we can explain a bit more.

Thanks

Mark

[eggplant]

Mark, the servo I used for the rabbit is a futaba 3003, torque 3.2kg/cm and works well because of the counterbalance at the bottom of the rabbit. FYI - check these cheapo servos 5.1kg £12 though as you say, high powered ones = high £££. I have one of these and am going to use it in my larger target which is coming along well!

Youtube link to servo moving target up and down, please note the rod with the spring on is actuall fixed for the video so disregard the spring and imagine just the servo, metal bar and rabbit. I filmed the other servo too just to show you it moving the magnet out of the way - this is the way I set it up as I said in an earlier thread. Hopefully the servo thing will now make sense.

Calv