Finale Match or what.........Pellet questions

[Garry]

Just avoid Milbro Match. They're full of swarf, they turn your fingers black, they group like a shotgun at 100metres, You can feel the variation in size when you load them, and the rough skirts will chew up your breech seal.

[BigAl]

My take on this question comes down to the real question, is the group size that the gun and ammunition together can do a large percentage of the actual group size that you are shooting. If that group size is 50% or more of the group size that you are currently shooting then the gun/ammo is likely to be playing a significant part in you overall result, that is the time to be looking for a better combination. Of course you will get to the point where there is not a better gun/ammo combination avilable to you, either through cost or the fact that you have the best pistol avilable with the best ammo, and any more improvement is going to be down to you. Hopefully by then you are the World and Olympic champion.

Alan

[Cones]

Also consider the fact that a marginally greater group size on an average shot may actually result in a higher score.

It might break the higher score line rather than the lower one. (Now that is going to mess with your head )

Mark

[Meladdo]

World and Olympic champion

LOL - I wish - Its a Goal I suppose


O go on then I will give it a go.......

[BigAl]

LOL - I wish - Its a Goal I suppose


O go on then I will give it a go.......

It would be nice, of course for may of us we reach the point where we have no more room to improve the ablity well before the point we would like. Unfortunaly I personally found that point, well looking back now I realise that I did even if at the time I didn't and kept on trying, but then that's really the only way we get anywhere. In some ways I guess that I am lucky that ill health stopped me from trying to continue shooting competitvly at the point where my ablity was just about running out, so I did not have to find out the hard way that I wasn't good enough to make it.

Alan

[maker]

My LP50 likes Gecos and Hobbys. I usually use hobbys since its easier to get in my area. Theres no problem getting 10s at 10m with either pellet if I don't screw up.

[Meladdo]

LOL - I wish - Its a Goal I suppose


O go on then I will give it a go.......

^^^^
My tongue firmly in my cheek - I have taken up Target shooting as a way of relaxation - I am no longer able to do archery as my physical limitations (back problems) prevent me......Plus all that kit - lugging it around..No Thanks.......Gun in case and some lead.......far smaller package ;-)

I am hoping to do some competition but that remains to be seen - for now just competing with myself

[BigAl]

Also consider the fact that a marginally greater group size on an average shot may actually result in a higher score.

It might break the higher score line rather than the lower one. (Now that is going to mess with your head )

Mark

It could I suppose do that if you manage to combine a pistol/ammo flyer in one direction with an exactly opposite shooter error, but it isn't really the case. Any shooter/gun/ammo combination should shoot a group which is normally distributed (at least when shooting indoors where there is no wind effect). This means that the next shot will land randomly within the group size, but you cannot tell where, but as they are normally distributed what you do know is that you are much more likley to place a shot near the center of the group than the edge. So how big will the group be? And more importanly how many shots do we need to fire to discover how big the group will be?
Fortunatly for us ammunition manufactures have been studying this for quite some time, so we can use their results. I have in front the NRA Coaching course notes, in which there is a chapter on this subject. For ammunition testing Radway Green (RG which now part of BAE Systems and is actually situated just outside Crewe) shoot 20 round groups for testing. Providing the ammunition is all from the same statistical population (effectivly if all components are from the same batches and free from gross defects) then that 20 round group is going to be 97.5% of the size of a group formed by an infinite number of rounds. A group of 5 rounds gives 69.1%, 7: 77.9%, 10: 85.7% and 15: 94.2%. I know that these results are for NATO spec 7.62×51mm Ball ammunition, but would expect the figures to be very simmilar for all ammunition types. As can be seen the group size grows quite quickly but it also shows that is necessary to fire at least 15 rounds and preferably 20 if we want to truly asses the group size that we are capable of shooting.
I have noticed that many especially in the powder burners section like to brag about how small their groups are, but then they go on to say that they are only 3 round groups. Whats more they say that stop at three rounds beause if they shoot any more the groups start to open up! One only has to look at CF Benchrest shooting, which is mostly group shooting, they may only be firing 5 round groups but at least they do average four groups out to find the winner.

Alan

[riggers2647]

Bisley Practice Bisley Practice Bisley Practice Bisley Practice Bisley Practice
Bisley Practice Bisley Practice Bisley Practice Bisley Practice Bisley Practice
Bisley Practice Bisley Practice Bisley Practice Bisley Practice Bisley Practice
Bisley Practice Bisley Practice Bisley Practice Bisley Practice Bisley Practice

Which pellets do you use then?

[Cones]

It could I suppose do that if you manage to combine a pistol/ammo flyer in one direction with an exactly opposite shooter error, but it isn't really the case. Any shooter/gun/ammo combination should shoot a group which is normally distributed (at least when shooting indoors where there is no wind effect). This means that the next shot will land randomly within the group size, but you cannot tell where, but as they are normally distributed what you do know is that you are much more likley to place a shot near the center of the group than the edge. So how big will the group be? And more importanly how many shots do we need to fire to discover how big the group will be?
Fortunatly for us ammunition manufactures have been studying this for quite some time, so we can use their results. I have in front the NRA Coaching course notes, in which there is a chapter on this subject. For ammunition testing Radway Green (RG which now part of BAE Systems and is actually situated just outside Crewe) shoot 20 round groups for testing. Providing the ammunition is all from the same statistical population (effectivly if all components are from the same batches and free from gross defects) then that 20 round group is going to be 97.5% of the size of a group formed by an infinite number of rounds. A group of 5 rounds gives 69.1%, 7: 77.9%, 10: 85.7% and 15: 94.2%. I know that these results are for NATO spec 7.62×51mm Ball ammunition, but would expect the figures to be very simmilar for all ammunition types. As can be seen the group size grows quite quickly but it also shows that is necessary to fire at least 15 rounds and preferably 20 if we want to truly asses the group size that we are capable of shooting.
I have noticed that many especially in the powder burners section like to brag about how small their groups are, but then they go on to say that they are only 3 round groups. Whats more they say that stop at three rounds beause if they shoot any more the groups start to open up! One only has to look at CF Benchrest shooting, which is mostly group shooting, they may only be firing 5 round groups but at least they do average four groups out to find the winner.

Alan

Yes, nicely put thank you.

I think what we are saying is that unless you are the calibre of pistol shooter who regularly puts all the shots in the 9 and 10 then the tiny group size advantage offered by pellets 4 times more expensive than some is pretty much wasted money.

You could have four times the shots and use that to improve your shooting skills rather than dwell on bench clamping your pistol. When you think the pellets are holding yours scores back, then it is time to buy the very best.

HTH

Mark

[BigAl]

Thats just about it Mark, fire lots of shots, but really only has part of a planned training scheme. If you are interested the NRA coaching book, a bit further into the chapter that I was quoting from has an equation that summarises the overall group size from the separate elements, shooter/gun/ammo. I will post if you are interested. It is written to give group size, but I suppose that it could be worked backwards to give the shooters contribution to the group size if the other variables are known.

Alan

[Garry]

I've just tested 3 types of pellets in 2 pistols.
Each result was 60 shots 2 handed at 6 yards with the UBC size 6 yard target.
As you'll see from the scores I won't be in the Olympics, but I was just testing to see what suited me at my level of shooting.
Not a massive difference, but probably enough to matter.

Tau 7
Bisley Practice...537 average shot 8.95
R10 4.9mm........524 average shot 8.73
Geco.........538 average shot 8.96

Gamo Compact
Bisley Practice...535 average shot 8.91
R10 4.9mm.......526 average shot 8.76
Geco........507 average shot 8.45 (may reshoot this one as it's so far off the others)

I'll use Bisley Practice in future as both pistols liked it, and it slides into the barrel easily without having to feel if it's seated, plus psychologically, I won't be using the cheapest pellet and thinking "what if?"

Cheers
Garry

[br22]

Did you know which pellets you were shooting and when.

That sort of test is limited in what it tells you, since you are still the main variable.

Also if you know which pellets you are using it can subconsiously affect you.

At least get someone else to provide the pellets and not tell you till afterwards.

br22

[Garry]

You're probably right to an extent. With the Gecos in the Compact, I knew I was shooting a bit worse than usual, which is why I might do that one again.

The reason I did the test was to see if I was the same at my level with different priced pellets, which I think it shows I am.

I have a thing about using the cheapest though, because I think I might be missing out somehow.

Like you say, it's psychological as well.

[Cones]

I'd just use the Geco's. Then you can do twice as much shooting and get better.

At 10m in all my pistols I cannot see the difference between £2.40 a tin and £10 a tin. But it is most likely that the shooter is the biggest variable.

HTH

Mark