Pellet question for the vintage BSA experts

[Tantomurata]

In the 1920's -1930's, did BSA licence the manufacture of BSA pellets to any overseas companies? or did they have any of their pellets made overseas under contract?

[edbear2]

Hi.....I really don't know personally....The earliest reference I have found for BSA Branded pellets is dated 1908 and refers to the Adder pellet, and even then they were recommended as the ones to use exclusively above any other brand, both because BSA could guarantee the quality of the Ammo...and obviously they didn't want to lose pellet sales to other makes...I believe they were made at the rolling mill at Adderley park (BSA bought this in 1873)...These later were then were branded just BSA, but the pack and pellet design seem to be the same...(in fact doing at bit of research, these later pellets below were made by Cox and Co. of Lozells, Birmingham)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3122848...7607964699940/

"Witton" pellets, (made by Kynock).the forerunners of the Wasp and Pylarm types, came after, but these were not marked BSA, only recommended by BSA I believe, so do these count?

After that, the next one I personally am aware of is the Pylarm pellet, which arrived in the very late 1920's / early 1930's....A long running pellet and contemporary to the Eley/Kynock/ICI Wasp brand, the earliest tins were paper labels on top,with a gumstrip sealing band;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3122848...7607964699940/

They progressed (as screen/litho printing became the norm) as did the wasps, till in the late 40's / early 50's the tins had the same graphic design, but looked more "modern";

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3122848...7607964699940/

At all times BSA had a strong brand/export creed, and very well established dealers and marketing in all the emerging export destinations, so I can't see why they would let someone else manufacture stuff for them (at that period) without being really fussy about the quality etc..Plus the area around Birmingham (and Eley London) had the most modern plants for pellet production...the later BSA pellets may well have been Eley / Kynock made....I don't know that either!...I have seen old tins of with "made for use in BSA" etc.... ie; Beatall by lanes which Have "recommended for BSA rifles " on the tin, (which I am suprised BSA allowed!) But nothing with "made for / under licence from / BSA"......remember, in the 1920's /30's BSA guns were pretty much still the most sought after and respected design...even the Germans were copying the basic layout and look, so anything say a pellet maker could do to try and associate themselves with BSA would probably improve their sales.....This is not to say that they did not do as you asked, the simple and short answer (I can never do these)..

Is....I personally have never seen/read/heard anything along these lines, but would be interested to hear any info you may have uncovered ...as it is all a bit like tracing your family tree trying to work out the history of some of these little lead fellas

[Tantomurata]

Ed.

I can't post/share the scan as the owner has plans for the original catalogue and was generous enough to let me have scans of the air rifle related pages for my own research. I believe the intention of the owner is to have the catalogue republished.

Nonetheless this description will explain the reason for my question.

Carton design at first glance appears the same as the Adder type in your photo, .22 in 500, .177 in 1,000.

However, I noticed today that the Union Jack quarter of the white and blue ensigns, is actually a 16 ray Rising Sun, with the sun globe centralised in the rays. Below the wording BSA Pellets, it says Made by, and then has the name and address of a company in Tokyo.
In the top right corner where the piled arms appear on the Adder type packet, it has a silhouette of a pellet.

I know from 'Golden Century' that in 1928 several thousand BSAs were sent to Japan as parts, due to import laws, I wonder if there was an import restriction that led BSA to have BSA branded pellets made in Japan. The catalogue is dated 1930, so it's of a similar time frame.

[edbear2]

Hi Again, I have been doing a bit more reading and research, and have amended my first answer with a bit more info....I still am intrigued, as in all the books I have there is only mention of exporting pellets, and nothing about any foreign market producing pellets....do you think they just copied the general style of the packaging and made them without BSA knowing, or perhaps they sent some for approval (as we both know, Japanese pellets are superb quality!)...and BSA gave them their blessing???

I will be up to John Knibbs in the next week or so, so will ask him if he has seen/heard anything in his research over the years.

[Tantomurata]

I don't know that they would have just made them without permission, especially not as they were selling BSA air rifles.
The Japanese approach to copying other countries products was (at least in the 1930's) to obtain the licensed manufacturing rights. A few examples that spring to mind are the Lewis Gun, Vickers aircraft machine gun, Harley Davidson motorcycle.

My thought is that they made them with BSA permission or licence, possibly due to trade restrictions, but I have no information to support this idea.

When you see John Knibbs, please ask if he knows the name of the Japanese company(ies) that imported the BSA's in 1928 (or at any other pre-war period) This would help in my research.

[silva]

Great thread - Are there any of the exported Bsa's still about in Japan Tantomurata ?

[Tantomurata]

Great thread - Are there any of the exported Bsa's still about in Japan Tantomurata ?

Silva, I doubt it, although deactivated air-rifles very occasionally appear for sale in Japan, and it's possible that an old BSA is kicking around in a farmers outhouse somewhere.

Air-rifles have been licensed in Japan since 1955, and are controlled like any other firearms, that is one of the reasons why airsoft developed. I think, but am not 100% sure that target shooting is the only reason now accepted for owning an air-rifle. (There is a field target association, as well as the NRAJ)

It is my impression that the licensed air-rifles currently used in Japan tend to be nearer the top end of the market, and they are very expensive in comparison to prices outside Japan.

Some price examples from a current Japanese gunshop catalogue;
FX Cyclone 346,000 JPY (approx £2,594)
Daystate Air Wolf MVT 546,000 JPY (£4,094)
Air Arms S410 336,000 JPY (approx £2,519)

[Tantomurata]

I've received a pm from the owner of a tin of 500 BSA pellets named "Silver Shadow" on the back of the tin there is a tiny label which says.......
"made in Spain to BSA specifications"

This confirms that BSA have had pellets made overseas.

and, it adds weight to the assumption that the Japanese made BSA pellets from 1930 that I describe above, are a legimate BSA product.

[edbear2]

Hi....They are probably el gamo in origin, from when they started making Spanish meteor mk 6's around the early 1990's (apparently the tooling for the meteor was clapped out, and they used modded/re-designed El-Gamo / ASI Sniper parts.

I have emailed "de Man" regarding export company names etc. in the 20's/30's...but will try and make sure I have a chat as well!

[Tantomurata]

I have emailed "de Man" regarding export company names etc. in the 20's/30's...but will try and make sure I have a chat as well!

Excellent, thanks Ed. Here's hoping we'll learn some more.