Australia - shooter's nirvana or legal hell hole?

[McTrucky]

Any Ozzys on here?

What are your laws like concerning target shooting? I might be getting a contract position in Aus and if I was living out there would like to be able to shoot pistols out there - nothing big, just .22 rapid fire, .32 centrefire and air pistols.

Cheers
McT

[Tikka223]

G'day McTrucky

Are you fa Fife? I'm no fa OZZ but the right side O the Tay

There cany be more that one McTrucky Hope yer the right one if no I'm affy sorry

Ginger???????

[Jerry Cornelius]

I guess an ozzie will be along soon, but from what I have heard, Australian gun laws make the UK look like Texas. Pretty sure everything is on ticket, and tickets aren't easy to get

[McTrucky]

Hey Mr TikkaSakoMasalla,

You are right, there can only be the one McT. It's the blue boots and silver trousers that give it away.

So what's the firearms legislation like in Dundee these days? Almost half of Scotlands CWG medals came from shooting - any hint of a favourable tail wind for shooting up there?

I also applied for a job in the Philipines, but an annual murder rate of over 10,000 makes the place seem a bit like Guildford on a Saturday night - Oz would be better; if I can shoot rapid fire.....

McT

[cinstone]

I think their firearms laws are similar to ours, if not worse!

Chris.

[RobinC]

It's more sensible than ours, they are certainly allowed smallbore and centre fire pistol. How you would get on as a guest I hav'nt a clue, try the "Olympic pistol" section of the TargetTalk forum on the Pilkguns site, there are several Ossie's on regularly on that.
Good shooting
Robin

[Tikka223]

Ginger.......you still pissing about with the wee stuff then? I ....we done no bad at the Games, this still won't make a jot of differance to shooting.
Have been told that the centerfire is getting held on my permission (BB) and they are about to spend a few bob but it will all be removed at the end of the games.....what a f'n waste!

Look'in at Ozz then? Kurty and I would be up for a wee holiday there, the odd BBQ , Super chilled Foster's and twa or three days at the ROO's! also wee canny forget a wee off road biking trip.

I think wee would be up for the Philipines too!

You up here any time soon?

Show Time

[Korium]

I read up about them a few years ago. Not 100% on all the details, but anyway. Up until about the 80's/90's they appeared to have very little controls whatsoever, then a massacre took place similar to Hungerford, but as I recall, a rather high death toll compared to the usual numbers.

Military style firearms are banned, such as AR15s, but I am not sure how stringent this is. I think it mainly applies to black nasties, but stuff like FALs and M14s are likely banned.

I was told a certain amount of their legislation was based around decision made over what Arnie was using in his movies, a sure sign of legislation by idiots.

I also seem to remember chaps I knew there telling me prices were generally pretty steep.
I knew several with handguns, including Glocks and various large calibre revolvers, and they do have clubs which cater for them.

[Rodd]

Could try this place: http://ausvarmint.com/forum/index.php

Rod

[McTrucky]

Thanks guys, I will follow up via the link suggested.

Tikka - follow up on email, I'm not sure anyone else would understand the Dundee speak.

eg. meetpe, beanpe an an ingin ain in aw. I mean a meat pie bean pie and an onion one as well.

[dieselten]

In New South Wales (where I live):-

You'll need to be a member of a recognised target-shooting pistol club,

need to pass a probationary period before you can purchase a pistol,

need to have a firearms licence (which will be endorsed with the categories of firearms you are approved to own and have in your possession), in NSW it is a photo-ID credit-card sized licence which can be annually renewed or on a 5-year basis.

for the first firearm you wish to purchase you will need to apply for a "Permit To Acquire", wait a 4-week "cooling-off" period, then pay for your pistol, and have an approved safe in which to keep it. This safe will be inspected by the Police - regularly.

For subsequent firearms (of the same category) the cooling-off period is waived but a new "Permit To Acquire" is required and you have to justify why you need the firearm.

Every firearm will have a registration certificate, and when the Police inspect your safekeeping facilities they also check every firearm against the certificate looking for anomalies and errors. (BTW, keep a photocopy of all your registration certificates in your car; if you get pulled over by the Police and are carrying your weapons it may save you having the Police confiscate them whilst they check on your legality). Registration certificates have a one-time-only fee and are perpetual, they are not renewed annually.

Additionally, if you use target-shooting as your valid reason to own a firearm, then you will have to attend a minimum number of shooting events per year, have your attendences recorded and these attendences will be reported to the Police Firearms Registry. Fail to record enough attendences and you lose your firearms. To hunt on private land you need written permission of the landowner. You may also be a member of a recognised "hunting club" to use hunting as a valid reason. (I use both, and have to record 4 target rifle events per annum and 2 hunting events as well)

To actually buy a pistol (or any firearm) you must pay have a valid "Permit To Acquire", pay for it, then arrange the transfer from the dealer or previous owner to yourself through a dealer, the Police themselves or your club armourer who handles the siginificant paperwork associated with acquisition/disposal. You can't just buy one from a mate and then take care of the paperwork. Paperwork first, then the weapon legally can change hands.

You also lose your firearms if you are the subject of an "Apprehended Violence Order" (e.g. your wife/girlfriend/significant other believes you may be of a mind to do them harm), in which case you either arrange for your club Armourer to have safe-custody of your firearms until your court-case is heard or the AVO is lifted, or (if you are not quick enough) the Police confiscate your firearms and if you ever get them back the condition you get them back in is likely to be anything from in more or less the same as you last saw them to rusty, bent, broken, defaced or totally vandalised - or simply "lost" and unable to be returned.

Maximum prison term for a firearms offence in New South Wales is 14 years imprisonment (10 years is classed as a "life sentence") with a fine of multiple thousands of dollars. (Convicted terrorists usually get seven to ten years and are not fined as far as I am aware).

These things said, in NSW we shooters are a highly-politicised section of society, with a healthy club membership, political representation at the state level in Parliament (where the Hunting & Fishing Party is well-regarded for its use of factual data when presenting a case and has succeeded in rolling back some of the worst excesses of legislators following the Port Arthur massacre in 1996) and we are recognised by state government as legal, bona-fide sportsmen who deserve government grants for develpopment of facilities etc.

Other Australian states vary in their legislation. Air rifles and pistols are regarded as a firearm in every state and territory (any device released by a trigger-mechanism is a working definition of a firearm,) and are subject to the same controls as a cartridge-powered weapon.

In spite of the crowing of the Federal government about "uniform national gun-laws" they are anything but uniform, anything but national but they are most definitely "gun-laws" (i.e. they apply to all pistols, rifles and shotguns or combinations thereof) and they are administered by each individual state or territory.

In NSW all rimfire semi-auto, centrefire semi-automatic rifles and semi-auto and pump-action shotguns are to all intents and purposes illegal. Forget about them, it's just too hard. Also, any rifle which is 338 Lapua Magnum or bigger will attract special attention from the licencing authorities and Police...make sure your club and rifle-range is approved for large-calibre long-range weapons. (e.g. the 50-cal BMG is likely to be very difficult to purchase and use in Australia, even in a single-shot bolt-action form). There is an upper limit to pistol calibres as well, I seem to recall the 45ACP is no longer legal in most states. Full-auto weapons are strictly illegal and have been since about 1912!

The Sporting Shooters Association of Australia website is very informative and should be able to answer most of your questions, and you can always email for advice. (www.ssaa.org.au)

[McTrucky]

Thanks Dieselten for a very comprehensive response. Sounds like a bit of a nightmare...
McT

[dieselten]

Not a nightmare, just a huge pain in the b&$#! But if you have a genuine reason for owning a firearm and meet all the requirements you have a very wide choice of firearms and plenty of opportunities to use them.

Anyone coming here from the UK will find the situation a little different in the detail, but it is far from doom and gloom. The shooting sports in Australia are thriving, and the legislators are now seeking advice from reputable firearms groups and bodies before framing new laws.

[McTrucky]

It is interesting what you say about the legislators taking note of sensible argument - the problem in the UK (not just with shooting laws) has been the knee jerk creation of new laws.

There is currently an ongoing 'gun law review' consultation in the UK following a recent (June this year) mad man event; but this time there seems to be a more reasoned attitude - the letter I got back from my MP was very supportive indicating that both he and our PM share the view that the laws that can not be applied to those who do not choose to comply (ie criminals), and that can not legislate against a 'mad man' only serve to infringe on the decent law abiding sportsman, increase cost and administrative complexity for law enforcers and actually do nothing to protect the public interest.

To this end there are several voices trying to roll back previous laws, such as the outright handgun ban. The up coming London Olympics and the Glasgow Commonwealth Games in 2014 require the use of .22 rapid fire pistols; you can imagine the complexity in policing how 'elite shooters' can train in the UK, and the hassle that will need to be gone through for visitors, spectator and competitors for the actual events. Although unlikely, it is possible that the law could be changed for the better.

In the UK, people tend not to get involved - and the consultative process that arrives at new laws being created usually has just dozens or very low hundreds of contributors. Against this, the headlines and media publicity that follows an atrocity would lead a reasonable bystander to believe that all guns should be banned - and that would prevent such a thing ever happening again. Therefore, it is not in an MPs interest to go out on a limb for common sense when the majority of the public are ill informed, and require education to understand why the MP has gone out on that limb. Far easier (and more sensible in their position) for an MP to accept they are doing something foolish, but if the majority of voters want something foolish then give the voters what they want.

If more of the shooting community wrote to MPs, and if the MPs believed that acting sensibly would not cost them votes, then perhaps we would stand a chance of positive change, but few shooters do make the effort through apathy, which is a real pity. I'm glad things are more positive on your side of the world.

McT

[dieselten]

We formed our own political party, and we got representatives elected to the state parliaments, where "gun-laws" are debated and enacted. We went to the seat of power. We became political animals on the principle "if you can't beat them, join them". Only by this means could we hope to counter the hysterical bleatings and idealogically-driven mantras of the anti-gun rabble.

We became, and continue to be, an integral part of the political process. Politicians of all persuasions in the state legislatures soon learned that the Shooters Party gave factual, straight answers backed up with verifiable research and references that were gathered from independent studies. We repeatedly refuted the wild claims of the anti-firearms lobby. We produced detailed studies about the roles of hunting in conservation, we explained the truth to those in politics who had the courage to listen, and we showed much of the anti-gun lobby's political platform to be emotionally-driven claptrap.

We also became media-savvy, with patient explanations and refutations of anti-firearms rhetoric. We pointed out the follies of the anti-gun arguments. We pointed out the difference between an armed criminal and a licenced hunter or target marksman. Some in the media chose to ignore what we pointed out, others listened, understood, and were far better prepared for the predictable rantings of the left-wing loonies who wanted to ban all guns.

We did not sit back...we acted, voted and now we slowly roll back the lunacy of well-intentioned but badly-drafted and hastily-enacted legislation.

Until you in the UK have representatives in your parliament, you will be unable to better your lot and will be at the mercy of the "control by banning" crowd. From what I see of the UK, you have now become almost exactly what you would have become if the Nazis had won World War 2 and conquered Britain. What makes it worse is you actually voted for the clowns who have progressivley inflicted these losses of freedoms on you.

Every freedom you have will be slowly but surely taken from you in the name of national security unless you get politically-active and do something about it.