Would you sell your collectable guns at auction?

[ccdjg]

There's been some debate on here about the best way to sell a collection of air guns - auction, on the net or at an arms fair. Having looked at some of the weird prices fetched at the recent Wallis & Wallis auction I would certainly not risk my valued items at auction. For example, while a common push-barrel Dolla pistol sold for £60, two Acvokes only made £40 and £60 each and a nice Warrior fetched only £100. Similarly in the rifles, whereas two Gems made £130 and £120, a BSA Improved Model D made only £70 and a 1908 Lincoln Jeffries BSA underlever only £60. A Webley Service Mark II fetched £180 and a Webley Mark 3 went for £70. And remember, if you were selling you would have to pay the auctioneers their commission.

Was this a one-off phenomenon, or are vintage British air guns becoming less collectable than German guns for some reason? I started collecting about 20 years ago, and even back then I would have been happy to pick up an Acvoke for under a ton.

[Garvin]

I saw those Wallis prices too, John, and wondered if something odd had occurred, like heavy snow (or more likely flooding) in Lewes on the day, perhaps! But it does make you think. If I was ever to sell off a collection by auction, I think I'd be trying to generate as much publicity as possible beforehand.

[The Ratcatcher]

I have a massive collection of pistols and would definately not sell at auction. It would be far better to spend time on here and sell them to us collectors. You will get much more money with no fees etc.

[Fronteria]

There's been some debate on here about the best way to sell a collection of air guns - auction, on the net or at an arms fair. Having looked at some of the weird prices fetched at the recent Wallis & Wallis auction I would certainly not risk my valued items at auction. For example, while a common push-barrel Dolla pistol sold for £60, two Acvokes only made £40 and £60 each and a nice Warrior fetched only £100. Similarly in the rifles, whereas two Gems made £130 and £120, a BSA Improved Model D made only £70 and a 1908 Lincoln Jeffries BSA underlever only £60. A Webley Service Mark II fetched £180 and a Webley Mark 3 went for £70. And remember, if you were selling you would have to pay the auctioneers their commission.

Was this a one-off phenomenon, or are vintage British air guns becoming less collectable than German guns for some reason? I started collecting about 20 years ago, and even back then I would have been happy to pick up an Acvoke for under a ton.

Having purchased at auctions for many years as a collector it appears too work like this, if there are only dealers at the auction prices are suppressed; take for instance the Webley Service MK11 which sold for £180-00.
The auctioneer’s commission is £37-00 (20.56%) making a total of £217-00 paid by the dealer; they will set their price at more than double the price what was paid at the auction so their asking price will be around £450-00 at their retail premises.
As the seller your £180-00 raised at auction is subject to a commission charge of 15% or £27-00 in money terms.
From the total the seller gets £153-00 the auction house gets £64-00 if the dealer has got it right he makes £233-00 out of the deal when he sells it.
If the collectors are at the auction be prepared to pay a good deal more prices will double, sometimes lots sell for more than their retail value.
In other words it's a lottery with the seller losing every time.

[Muskett]

Relatives of inherited collections rarely get anything near the true value as they haven't got a clue. Auction houses provide a service by finding buyers for the oddest stuff; and charge through the nose for it. Trade buyers have to make a living and illegal rings, fixing prices, do happen.

I sell stuff through auction houses if the cost to find a buyer is too high and not worth the effort.

To sell an airgun collection I would take pictures of groups of 5 and then get enthusiast forum members to give a value. Then put each up for sale with a couple of pictures; price 10% below the prices given. Leave a week and if not sold drop another 10%.

Or get the valuation as above and take a table at a gun fair, like Bisley; again priced to sell. You could have a good fun day doing it.

But all this takes time which can still make auction houses look attractive even with near 40% commission and trade value.

[keith66]

Some years ago i had an antique live pigeon gun valued, an english gun by a well known london maker, not one of the top names but well known none the less. I was advised that at auction it would be expected to fetch £4-500
When i remarked that i had just had a collector who really knows his stuff trying to buy it for double that, this was dismissed with the comment "auction price is the real true value".
I disagree its worth whatever you can get for it!

[mjohno]

I saw those Wallis prices too, John, and wondered if something odd had occurred, like heavy snow (or more likely flooding) in Lewes on the day, perhaps! But it does make you think. If I was ever to sell off a collection by auction, I think I'd be trying to generate as much publicity as possible beforehand.

Unless the items you are selling are in the "never wish to see them again" category, it's always wise to put a sensible reserve on any item you send to auction.

[Josie & John]

There's been some debate on here about the best way to sell a collection of air guns - auction, on the net or at an arms fair. Having looked at some of the weird prices fetched at the recent Wallis & Wallis auction I would certainly not risk my valued items at auction. For example, while a common push-barrel Dolla pistol sold for £60, two Acvokes only made £40 and £60 each and a nice Warrior fetched only £100. Similarly in the rifles, whereas two Gems made £130 and £120, a BSA Improved Model D made only £70 and a 1908 Lincoln Jeffries BSA underlever only £60. A Webley Service Mark II fetched £180 and a Webley Mark 3 went for £70. And remember, if you were selling you would have to pay the auctioneers their commission.

Was this a one-off phenomenon, or are vintage British air guns becoming less collectable than German guns for some reason? I started collecting about 20 years ago, and even back then I would have been happy to pick up an Acvoke for under a ton.

I viewed the air rifles and pistols prior to the recent Wallis & Wallis auction and to put it as diplomatically as I can, many were not in the best condition. For example a BSA Light pattern from before WW1 was pitted with non original parts fitted along with a post WW1 No22 peepsight. Others were refinished, one quite well (Midland Gun Co Demon) and I sort of wish I left a bid on the Musketeer as it went for a song. Both these rifles are now up on a well known dealer's website for considerably more than the W&W price! So, in summary, condition is paramount and some of these were in desperate need of restoration.

Kind regards,
John

[Garvin]

Unless the items you are selling are in the "never wish to see them again" category, it's always wise to put a sensible reserve on any item you send to auction.

Yes, very true, although I see Holts has this proviso on reserves:

"In the event of a Lot failing to reach its reserve, the Auctioneers shall be entitled to a commission of 5.9% (inclusive of VAT) of the reserve price, unless alternative charges have been previously agreed. If the vendor increases the reserve price after the item(s) are consigned, the Auctioneers shall be entitled to a commission of 25% (+VAT) of the enforced revised reserve if the item(s) do not sell in that particular auction."

[Lakey]

There is a saying that "Cream always rises to the top"

In the auctioning world that means that good rare items in fine condition always sell well and make top money, the problem comes with average condition stuff, which may do well one day, or may end up going for a song on another.That is the gamble you take.
I didnt go to the Wallis auction, however I could tell from the wording on the catalogue, that a lot of the guns were refinished or had actions "at fault". They smacked of a collector disposing of his "also rans",so maybe that was why they didnt make much money ?

If I had a under ten average guns to move on,I might consider putting them in auction as a compromise between return, and time taken to get that return. If I had a really desireable item for sale, then I would probably advertise it on the BBS, and other forums, or I would attempt to place it directly to other known collectors.

Lakey

[mjohno]

Yes, very true, although I see Holts has this proviso on reserves:

"In the event of a Lot failing to reach its reserve, the Auctioneers shall be entitled to a commission of 5.9% (inclusive of VAT) of the reserve price, unless alternative charges have been previously agreed. If the vendor increases the reserve price after the item(s) are consigned, the Auctioneers shall be entitled to a commission of 25% (+VAT) of the enforced revised reserve if the item(s) do not sell in that particular auction."

When I enter a lot it's always no sell no fee, unless the vendor wants a very high, unlikely to achieve valuation putting on.