LAZ(er)Y WAY TO SHOOT MAGPIES

[Minuteman]

He's fine Ray. Your argument is incorrect, by the same token you could be enticing the pigeons if you have corn fields.

He is feeding the song birds, which are scarce and therefore is within his rights to do so. Because he has created an envirnonmentally friendly garden he has songbirds nesting (some I believe quite rare and threatened) which are being predated on my the magpies.
For this reason he is (with regret) shooting the magpies to protect these songbirds.
That, my friend, is a watertight defense, as long as he kills them clean and no pellet leaves his boundary

I only wish I could have said that as succinctly
Thank you Mr C.
Still the fact remains that in a suburban garden Mrs shockedandappalled may still report you to the authorities - and that even with a water tight defence would be a right pain in the proverbial.

[Mr. Gen]

Magpies and woodies gather in the one of the yards where I shoot at the weekend, it would be illegal for me to deliberatley scatter grain but as luck would have it a bag very often gets dropped as the Friday shift are finishing........

Plastic decoys are of course just purchased because there aren't enough real woodies and magpies around

I think that the use of a green laser for luring birds would probably be almost impossible to prove....after all the laser was only being used for range-finding wasn't it

[Raygun]

He's fine Ray. Your argument is incorrect, by the same token you could be enticing the pigeons if you have corn fields.

He is feeding the song birds, which are scarce and therefore is within his rights to do so. Because he has created an envirnonmentally friendly garden he has songbirds nesting (some I believe quite rare and threatened) which are being predated on my the magpies.
For this reason he is (with regret) shooting the magpies to protect these songbirds.
That, my friend, is a watertight defense, as long as he kills them clean and no pellet leaves his boundary

Hi Gary,
Sorry but I can't agree.

You are not growing crops to entice birds in, it's just a by product of growing the crop.

It's nonsense to say you are just feeding song birds, it may be your intention, but it's a practical impossibility. It's the feeder that is attracting the birds in and you won't even get the RSPB to back you on the saving songbirds plea.

It would be an extremely tenuous argument in Court and a defence that I certainly wouldn't attempt to rely on, especially as the offence carries a maximum of £5000 fine and/or 6 months inside for each bird.
I don't dispute that anyone has the right to feed birds. They just can't comply to the Licence if they do. Feeding is hardly demonstrating that you are trying to deter the birds.

The last problem of this sort was extensively discussed on here and the subject was a person who was successfully prosecuted for baiting Starlings into his garden and shooting them. Starling were on the list at the time but baiting them in wasn't allowable.

I will however contact BASC to see what their take on this is.

ATB
Ray.

[Jamie]

Provided that the feeders weren't placed for the magpies for the purpose of shooting them, then I suspect that the OP is OK.

Otherwise, to take the counterargument to it's logical conclusion, we're in the organic HLS on the shoot to help the grey partridges, which have increased in number, as have the carrion crows. Does this mean we need to rip up the beetle banks before we can run larsens?

Jamie

[Gary C]

Hi Gary,
Sorry but I can't agree.

You are not growing crops to entice birds in, it's just a by product of growing the crop.

It's nonsense to say you are just feeding song birds, it may be your intention, but it's a practical impossibility. It's the feeder that is attracting the birds in and you won't even get the RSPB to back you on the saving songbirds plea.

It would be an extremely tenuous argument in Court and a defence that I certainly wouldn't attempt to rely on, especially as the offence carries a maximum of £5000 fine and/or 6 months inside for each bird.
I don't dispute that anyone has the right to feed birds. They just can't comply to the Licence if they do. Feeding is hardly demonstrating that you are trying to deter the birds.

The last problem of this sort was extensively discussed on here and the subject was a person who was successfully prosecuted for baiting Starlings into his garden and shooting them. Starling were on the list at the time but baiting them in wasn't allowable.

I will however contact BASC to see what their take on this is.

ATB
Ray.

With respect Ray, I teach shooting to pest controllers and listen to the legal people from pest control companies detailing the minutae, so with the greatest respect, I know I am correct.

You contradicted yourself, feeding the birds is not the issue, the predation of magpies on the local songbirds IS the issue, otherwise there would never be a license to shoot them
I am sure the fella has filled the table with songbird mix that the magpies don't eat (if not he must do so) and therefore this is not attracting them (he's never seen one on his table after the food) and shoots them when they are after the songbirds.
You must take reasonable steps to scare them, unfortunately bird scarers are a no no because you would scare the songbirds, therefore you have tried constantly to shoo them away but still see the distressing picture of nests being raided by the over population of magpies. Therefore, to protect the songbirds you have no other option but to shoot the magpies.
The issue is safety and pellets leaving the boundary.

To be convicted of any offense there must be a confession / witness / forensics (2 out of 3) as to the offense, and there must be certainty beyond a reasonable doubt.

No way on gods good earth could he be convicted IF he kept his ducks in a row

[Raygun]

Hi Gary,
I bow to your greater knowledge.

I will say however that given what the RSPB say about Magpies I would be wary of using the defence of protection of wild birds.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/bird...songbirds.aspx

The OP did say the maggies were on the feeders so hopefully he's read your post

ATB
Ray.

[Parabuteo]

Hi Gary,
I bow to your greater knowledge.

I will say however that given what the RSPB say about Magpies I would be wary of using the defence of protection of wild birds.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/bird...songbirds.aspx

The OP did say the maggies were on the feeders so hopefully he's read your post

ATB
Ray.

Scuse me for being thick but....

If the feeders are there for the song birds, and the song birds are attracting the magpies....you are protecting the songbirds right?

Or is it the feeders that are attracting the magpies?...

How can you say it is one or the other?

After all, working on that logic we would never feed songbirds again in case we also attracted their associated predators.

It is the same with sparrowhawks...I love em, but the garden birds dont.

Where there is a source of food, the predators will gather....so they need protection right?

Before you nail it, how do you know whether the magpie was attracted by the song birds (and their nests) in which case nail the sod, or whether it was attracted by the feeder...in which case still nail the sod but say that as far as you were concerend you saw it attack a song bird so you had good reason

Would they put a magpie in the dock.....would you trust one anyway....can you polygraph a magpie

Who knew

[ARWP]

Hi Gary,
I bow to your greater knowledge.

I will say however that given what the RSPB say about Magpies I would be wary of using the defence of protection of wild birds.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/bird...songbirds.aspx

The OP did say the maggies were on the feeders so hopefully he's read your post

ATB
Ray.

Check this link for additional info;


http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/bird...l_methods.aspx

I am still unsure of the legalities of this, although this link doubtless indicates the RSPB stance!!. Thinking about it, why is wild bird conservation included in the general licence, if this is the RSPB stance?.

A

[albrown]

I think the trick, if the Police call with the rspb, is to say nothing without a Solicitor. it seems one wrong phrase and they will have you...

Alex

[Gary C]

Check this link for additional info;


http://www.rspb.org.uk/wildlife/bird...l_methods.aspx

I am still unsure of the legalities of this, although this link doubtless indicates the RSPB stance!!. Thinking about it, why is wild bird conservation included in the general licence, if this is the RSPB stance?.

A

Good point Ray, but as Magpies don't eat a lot of corn how can they be shot under General Ag or indeed H&S? Therefore if they are on Gen Ag it does seem to contradict RSPB stance.

I suspect the OP misquoted the location of the birds.

Bottom line that we all agree on is:

1. You MUST be 100% sure to shoot a bird
2. Shooting in your garden is well dodgy, and any defense is a risk, and as we have seen decisions can go either way
3. Descretion is always the watchword
4. If pulled, a cool head and a brief is the best action

Any magpie in my garden goes down, but I'll not bait them in any way

[Raygun]

Hi Gary,

I think what the debate does illustrate very well is the fine line that airgunners have to walk in quite a number of legal matters.

At times there appears to be very little common sense or logic applied and oft times we are left in the air and taking our chances.

ATB
Ray.

[Matou]

I moved the feeders last night to the other end of the garden - as per Ray's advice, so they're about 50 metres away now and far out of sight from where I work in my office.

Meanwhile:

Question - am I cleared legally to shoot any corvid that attempts to gain entry to the nesting boxes (thus protecting these birds), or is that deemed pre-baiting in putting up the boxes in the first place ?? I have one row of 5 boxes (blue tits and 1 wren family) cited with perfect angle to shoot across the fronts with a solid backdrop, so no risk of pellets striking the boxes.

I have apple, pear and plum trees, plus raised beds for vegetables ,and blackberry, blueberry and raspberry fruiting at this time - am I equally legally entitled to protect these crops as they are for my family's consumption, or are CROPS only deemed to be over a fixed acreage size? (I don't mean can I shoot if all I have is a window box with a tomato plant, I have 9 fruit trees, and raised salad/vegetable beds, each 2 metres x 1 metre in size).

I'm not being pedantic here - just want to ensure we are all aware of the rules of engagement and would look to advice.

Chris.

[Muppet Paster]

From the RSPB site...

"anyone killing magpies in their garden may have to prove to a court of law that they had acted lawfully. "


Erm, what happened to innocent until proven guilty, surely it's for the prosercution to prove you guilty, no t'other way around!


For what it's worth, after some bloody pest had all the fruits of my blueberry bush over the week, it's open season on Magpies, Woodies and tree rats this weekend.


So, green lazer you say?

[Raygun]

The answer from BASC, which bears out Gary's reply.

"If you were using a larsen trap you would need to bait the trap to catch your first bird. There is nothing in the GL06 which says you cannot bait the ground to entice the birds into your land provided you are complying with the general licence's terms and conditions. The onus is on you to prove that what you are doing complies with the licence should you be challenged."

The bird once caught cannot be released so has to be killed, and has been "Baited in"
I think you have to satisfy yourself that you are within the remit of GL06.

I still have problems with (a) demonstrating other methods of deterrence when also feeding, and (b) given the stance of the RSPB, demonstrating you are protecting a species when that protection isn't required (according to the RSPB).

I expect we have to make our decision and then hope it's good enough to satisfy any questioners should that situation arise.

ATB
Ray.

[ARWP]

As I indicated above, having watched Magpies strip songbird nests of fledglings, I know where I am on this......

A