Reply With QuoteOriginally Posted by parabellum
How much !!
Roy
.
Registered User
Hi All,
The powder flask that I have has a 24gr spout on it. Is it OK to use this much Triple 7 or should I buy another spout?
Smurf me up!
How much !!
Roy
.
Registered User
That's what it came with.
Smurf me up!
I've got a flask with a 25gn BP spout - but I wouldn't use it to load my pistol
I use a LEE powder thrower & plastic vials - moad up a box full - takes about 15 mins & you have nice consistent loads
Roy
.
I shoot and I vote
24 of 777 equates to close on 30 of BP so pretty much max for a .44 R&S. I wouldn't go that high myself but some like a big bang.
Don't go straight from flask to gun, always transfer via a plastic or glass phial or similar. Ask friends in the medical profession if they can get centrifuge vials or search the web.
As Roy says its much nicer to have a box of pre measured when you go to the range. A lot less pfaffing about makes you look slick and like you know what your about.
“If a cricketer, for instance, suddenly decided to go into a school and batter a lot of people to death with a cricket bat, which he could do very easily, I mean, are you going to ban cricket bats?” :- Prince Philip said after Dunblane
Banned
You're missing the point here. A flask nozzle measures by volume. The nozzle dispenses 25 grains of BP. By volume it will give exactly the same volume of 777, which will be the equivalent of 24 grains BP, regardless of weight. To be clear, a powder nozzle calibrated for 24 grains of BP will dispense, by your formula, about 19 grains of 777 (can't be arsed to work it out exactly. No doubt some bright sod will happen along in a bit to do it for me) which will have the same volume as 24 grains of BP.
Smurf me up!
Which is about 30% more powder than you need ....
16 or 18gns does the job nicely !
Roy
.
I shoot and I vote
777 is faster burning than BP or Pyro. you should reduce your charge by 17%. Its not a case of 24grn plus 17% but how high the charge would need to be to make it 24grn if you took off 17% so its approaching 30grn ok not quite and still within a good limit but its going to be on the hot side.
The history of 777 is quite interesting. Originaly Hodgdons said it produced the same energy volume for volume as BP. I'm sure they would have been taking proper measurments and using suitable equipment. But the first shooters using it submitted chronoed reports that they were going 17% faster. Hodgdon then recomended shooters to reduce their charges by 17% to achieve compatible results to BP, does not sound very scientific but thats all we got. We know it burns faster, we are told the energy level is the same, the purists hate us using it. At the end of the day I love the stuff, it's almost perfect as a muzzle loading propellant for percusion ignition.
There are problems with going faster, we use soft lead balls and if you go too fast you can strip the rifling off the ball as it goes up the barrel, maybe harder lead mix would help but then you get into the science of pressures. I prefer to not go too fast so stick to the 17% reduction guideline. I'm within 15-18 of 777 to give similarity to 19-24 of BP
Of coarse using the info available your 24grn spoutful of 777 produces the same energy as 24 of BP so should be perfectly safe. Its just going to go very fast and very hot so not expected to be accurate, but every gun is different so do let us know your results.
Last edited by Smokeless Coal; 01-12-2011 at 12:05 AM.
“If a cricketer, for instance, suddenly decided to go into a school and batter a lot of people to death with a cricket bat, which he could do very easily, I mean, are you going to ban cricket bats?” :- Prince Philip said after Dunblane
Registered User
So just to summarise, the recommendation is to use between 15 and 18 grains (volume) of triple 7 for my Rogers and Spencer .44.
I shoot and I vote
I would say thats in the sweet spot.
But hey I dont want to be a wet blanket, you go ahead and fire a set off at your 24grn max load just to see for yourself what its like. Its likely to get a lot of blowback through the flash hole and blow the caps to bits and if you do it too much can strip the threads on the nipples. And if you are new to muzzle loading at your club you are likely to have the old hands complaining, hes overloading it, hes using nitro powder, tut tut etc.
Last edited by Smokeless Coal; 01-12-2011 at 10:49 AM.
“If a cricketer, for instance, suddenly decided to go into a school and batter a lot of people to death with a cricket bat, which he could do very easily, I mean, are you going to ban cricket bats?” :- Prince Philip said after Dunblane
Registered User
Shot my Rogers and Spencer for the first time at the weekend. It's a superb pistol, had brilliant fun shooting it. Need to take some time over the coming weeks to work on my accuracy though. Recoil was no problem with 17 grains of Triple 7. From a build quality point of view I'm absolutely delighted with it, and would recomend it to anyone.
This is what I went with in the end:
0.451 diameter lead ball.
0.45 diameter felt Wonder Wad.
17 grains (volume) of Triple 7.
Dynamit Nobel No.1075 percussion cap.
Wonderlube applied to the top of the ball with a paint brush.
I weighed the Triple 7 dispensed from my 24 grain (volume) powder flask nozzle to weigh 18.8 grains. So one grain (volume) of Triple 7 approximately weighs 18.8/24 = 0.78 grains. So 17 grains (volume) of Triple 7 = 17 x 0.78 = 13.3 grains weight. This seems to work fine.
Found it reasonably easy to strip it down and very easy to clean with fairy liquid and a rinse with boiling water. Did have a wee bit of trouble getting the cylinder out and in as it was quite stiff being new. Found this link on the web with information on cleaning and strip down which was useful. There's also a PDF with an exploded view of the pistol at this link.
http://www.euroarms.net/ML/ASSISTANC...&S_ENGL_01.htm
Last edited by parabellum; 02-01-2012 at 01:32 PM.
I shoot and I vote
Sounds cool.
At least it has taught you the difference between ammount by volume and ammount by weight. I find its like banging my head against a wall trying to get new guys at the club to understand the difference.
Black powder should be 1 grain volume = 1 grain weight, well goex is. But other powders have different granular sizes and densities which makes them weigh different per vol.
Although these guns are not too fussy and work equally well over a wide range of charge its nice to find the sweet spot.
If you do cartridge reloading and have a powder dispencer its handy to set this up to drop your 13.3grn to put in your phials. It takes a matter of seconds then to fill them prior to going to the range and will give a closer match than you can get from a flask.
As for accuracy, I think most will agree that you get better if the ball is seated to just below the face of the cylinder. We achieve this by using a filler such as semolina.
Last edited by Smokeless Coal; 03-01-2012 at 10:26 AM.
“If a cricketer, for instance, suddenly decided to go into a school and batter a lot of people to death with a cricket bat, which he could do very easily, I mean, are you going to ban cricket bats?” :- Prince Philip said after Dunblane
Registered User
I use .454 balls in my Rogers & Spencer, they seat firmly with a good seal. My powder charge is 24gr of Black Powder (HK fine) I then pack out with a fibre wad or compressable filler such as polenta and seat the balls almost at the front of the chambers. I grease the top with Tallow. I've shot about 300 rounds through it so far without any problems other than the usual cap jams every now and then.
I've got hold of a handy powder measure so that I can reduce the charge a little and find the 'sweetspot' as 24gr is a little too much for the range (although its great fun!!) and I feel around 18gr would give a nice accurate target load.
I've found for maximum 'upset' of your pals on the range you should take advantage of very still misty mornings
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