7.3 Heritage?

[majex45]

[QUOTE=tacfoley;5357210]Sir - I asked a simple question, and did not expect to get a patronising response.
I'm not sure we are patronising you, it certainly wasn't my intention. What you must realise is that you cannot shoot your pistol like you used to do. There are restrictions, put on the owner by the Home Office, such as no competition for example.

I asked, how do ordinary law-abiding shooters actually to get to shoot their historical firearms?
You have to store your pistols at a Designated Site, there are about half a dozen in the country (Bisley, Bedford, Herts & Essex for example) Or, more to the point, how do law-abiding shooters first obtain suitable handguns of historical interest and fulfil their desires to shoot them? You need to purchase them off a specialized dealer in section 5aba pistols. They have to be delivered to the designated site by a S5 dealer or carrier. You may not take them home, or indeed, out of the site at all.

Like, it seems, many of you actually do.
Yes, there are about 30 regulars at the Bisley shoots, which are organised by an offshoot of the HBSA and another club that organise their own shoots. You will need to check how other sites arrange their shooting days.

After handing in a large number of handguns back in 1987, only to find a couple of years later that many of them would have qualified as historical firearms, At the risk of sounding patronising, had you bought and read a copy of the Firearms Act, you would have known about 7(3). Although I had to instruct the NRA about section 7 as they had no idea I, too, might care to spend some of my hard-earned military pension on some of the guns I used to shoot freely, but without the necessity of getting on a couple or airplanes to do it.

It still seems to me to be a chicken and egg situation - as a shooter of Swiss and Swedish classic rifles, I would like to have a collection of Swiss and Swedish classic handguns, too, but not just to look at. As a collector of Swiss rifles you should be able to qualify as a collector of Swiss pistols. The Act requires that both the owner (collector) AND the firearm qualify. If you specialisation is Swiss pistols you could have the Luger type and the Petter/SIG pistols. There is no cut off date on S7(3) but it gets progressively harder to justify pistols as they get newer. It is VERY hard to get a pistol made after 1998

If your friend who collects target pistols has Jurek Free Pistol #2 - There are Jureks in the collectionTHAT was mine. So was the 1936 Walther Olympia with all the accessories... There is at least one and possibly two in the collection.
By the way, if you are a life member of the NRA (I assume NRA of GB) and assuming you have asked them, then why haven't they offered any advice, after all, they charge enough.

[tacfoley]

Thank you, that makes it a lot clearer, not more welcome, just a lot clearer. No, I'm not a member of the NRA UK, but the 'other' one. As for modern firearms of Swiss/Swedish origin, they have no interest for me whatsoever. I'd be looking at Swedish Nagant and Husqvarna and Swiss Ordnance and maybe a Model 29 - all of which are readily available to me in the USA.

It does, however, look to be exceedingly costly here, both as far as the actual firearms are concerned, and the travelling needed to go visit them, although Bedford is not too far from me. I am more concerned, however, with the manner in which these hyper-expensive firearms can and cannot be used. It seems more like visiting an old relative serving a life-sentence with no parole, and about as much fun. 'Locked in', and 'handed the box with your gun so that you can get on with it', presumbly in a solitary, serious, non-competetive, historically considered and non-enthusing way, sounds as much fun as prising your own eyes out with a trowel.

Thanks, but no thanks.

tac

[Smokeless Coal]

It seems more like visiting an old relative serving a life-sentence with no parole.
Yep thats about the size of it.

It need not be expensive though. If the site is close enough your joining can include your regular target shooting and range use with your section 1s, range fees you would pay wherever you shoot. The pistols dont have to be pristine perfect examples, you probably wouldnt want to shoot it if it were. The storage rental is the worst extra cost, the sites have an increased insurance and security outlay to recover.

The lock in is not a solo thing, heritage sessions tend to be maybe once a month so quite a few attend together for a chat and a shoot. You cant keep ammo for your 7.3 at home so theres a fair bit of reloading done on site. And a lot more chatting and discussion than a regular shooting session.

[tacfoley]

Thanks for that footnote to what was rapidly becoming a lesson in futility for me...

Now that you've clarified a few points I'm afraid that 'see but can't touch' and 'non-competetiveness' of the meet would have me howling to be let out from being 'locked in'.

Add to that your comment that it need not be expensive due to range fees and so on...hmmmmm. My present club does not charge any range fees at all unless you are a on-spec visitor [with an FAC, of course] who just has to zero his gun at a convenient range. I shoot on the inside ranges twice a week and outside also twice a week, being as I'm a retired old f&rt.

And I found Model 29 Swiss Luger, too - exactly what I wanted. Sadly, the gun-murderers had gotten to it before I expressed any interest, but I can tell you that at £3500 there wasn't a lot of interest around.

Thanks and 'bye.

tac

[majex45]

I'd be looking at Swedish Nagant and Husqvarna and Swiss Ordnance and maybe a Model 29 - all of which are readily available to me in the USA. It is possible to personally import a S7(3). You only need a S5 dealer to take it from the port (or airport) to the Designated Site. I have done this twice, once from Spain and once from Belgium. You will also find that live firers are less money than deacts. However a Model 29 is going to be expensive wherever and whatever. The others will be much more modest.

It does, however, look to be exceedingly costly here, both as far as the actual firearms are concerned, and the travelling needed to go visit them, although Bedford is not too far from me. Herts & Essex are near Braintree and is a lively collector's club. Bisley is ferociously expensive. presumbly in a solitary, serious, non-competetive, historically considered and non-enthusing way, Not so, provided you enjoy the company of like minded collectors. There is no competition allowed and you may not handle anyone else's pistol but you can learn a whole lot from the other collectors. Unfortunately, you cannot try-before-you-buy. If you are interested in collecting, it will suit you, if you are only interested in shooting "as before" this is not possible. These are the limited means by which collectors were able to save some of the country's heritage, it is not a "loophole" through which everyone can ride. If it is not for you, so be it, I enjoy it but then I'm an inveterate collector.


tac

See above

[Jim McArthur]

. . . there's a Section 7.1, and a Section 7.3: and one of these categories allows you to keep an operable condition cartridge pistol at home, but you can't shoot it, or possess ammo that fits it.

And the other category allows you to shoot such a pistol, at certain approved ranges: but you have to store the pistol, and the ammo for it, at such a range.

And in either case, the pistol in question has to be historically significant, in some way, correct? How defined?

But isn't there some other category for operable conditions pistols chambered for obsolete calibers, that allows you to purchase same without a license?

And doesn't the latter include deactivated cartridge pistols, antique muzzleloading pistols (how defined?), and deactivated modern muzzleloading pistols?

Sorry for all the questions: but this is very confusing to me.

I think that I understand Sections 2, 1, and 5 OK.


Jim

[Smokeless Coal]

We have section 58 for obsolete caliber Jim. Our government (Home Office) publishes a list of obsolete calibers and guns on it.These are "off ticket".

section 7.1 covers collectables allowed at home these are held on a Firearms Certificate. As you say ammunition cannot be held for them but...... if you have a .38 revolver on 7.1 and perhaps an underlever rifle in .38 under section 1 you would have the ammo at home for the rifle (it would not of course be used in the revolver).

section 7.3 allows pistols to be held at Herritage sites but we have to assemble and store its ammo at the site.

[Jim McArthur]

Thank you, Smokeless!

Section 58. . . that's what I was thinking of. It's similar to our (US) law about antique cartridge guns: but I have to admit that it makes more sense. Our law exempts cartridge guns made before 1899: regardless of caliber. So you have some guns in perfectly shootable condition, chambered for ammo calibers available at your local sporting goods store, that are exempt from gun control laws.

That's provided it was made in 1898, or earlier. Another specimen, same make, model and caliber but made in 1899 or later, WOULD be subject to the gun control laws.

What's the cut-off year for a muzzleloader being regarded as off-ticket in the UK?

Jim

[Smokeless Coal]

thats 1939 Jim. But they must not be fired, to fire would require them to be put on FAC.

[ferrit]

Hi
I am just in the process of filling in the forms for variation on my licence for section 7

[Triumph]

I guess the first question would be, why do want 2 x .455 Webley's on sec 7:1....or do you mean 1 x .38 and 1 x .455

[ferrit]

Hi
I was advised a .38 Webley would not be coverd under section 7.1

[markH]

I don't understand this, why would you apply for a 7(1) certificate for a .455 webley when that caliber is on the obsolete calivbers list?

Cancel that, I remember .455 was on the list but it's on the list as "Not being on the list".......

[tacfoley]

I don't understand this, why would you apply for a 7(1) certificate for a .455 webley when that caliber is on the obsolete calivbers list?

Cancel that, I remember .455 was on the list but it's on the list as "Not being on the list".......

That makes just about as much sense as any of the rest of the application form.

tac

[Jim McArthur]

That makes just about as much sense as any of the rest of the application form.

tac

I'd guess that .450 and others are probably listed as obsolete: so they get questions about
.455 so often that they're letting you know up front that no, this one isn't lumped in with the others.

Jim