Webley Mk 3 Scope advice.

[zooma]

I have just bought a Webley Mk 3 that is in really good condition. The blue finish is amazing - maybe a MAG finish ? - and the rifle looks superb - unfortunately a lot better than my aging eyesight.

As I want to enjoy shooting this classic rifle ( the action is very smooth and it feels like it has had very little use), I need to fit a suitable scope to it, but the three spot welds that secure the scope mounting plate suggest I should be a little careful with the choice. A big scope would be too heavy, and not look right on a nice classic rifle like this.

I do have a Simmons 1.5 - 5 x 20mm Whitetail classic that I could fit, but the modern cast scope mounts all seem to have quite thick and heavy "claws" that look to be fatter than the scope plate/cylinder gap, and I don't want to fit them if they will cause any leverage against the spot-welded scope plate.

Even this smallest Symonds scope is big and compariltively heavy when compared with a typical period scope such as the Japanese Dragon Slayer 4 x 20 type from that same time period, and the pressed tin mounts on these would not squeeze between the scope plate and the cylinder. Unfortunately the optics on these were not too good, and I am looking for something a little better that I can see clearly through.

Any ideas about a suitable scope?....but even more importantly - any thoughts about suitable scope mounts that would be safe to fit with a small scope on the Mk 3 scope plate.

[silva]

Hi,
I would think about one of the old steel 7/8" tube Weaver scopes from the 50's or 60's - they were made up until the late 70's. Good optics, cheapish to buy and look the part. They often came with a good steel quality mounts that fit a variety of rails.
Cheers

[zooma]

Thanks Silva - I have never seen a Weaver scope, but a thin tubed scope like that would probably look good on my Mk 3, and if it has steel mounts they may have thinner "claws" than the modern cast alloy types that could fit the scope mounting plate better.

Do these narrow tubed scopes collect enough light to work well? I have an old 4x20 "Dragon Slayer" scope of the right sort of "look" and time period with a 3/4" tube, and although not the best example of this budget scope it does not really bring in too much light ( even after I cleaned the lenses).

The scope does look "right" on the rifle, the pressed tin mounts fit the scope plate perfectly, and the very lightweight construction should not trouble the spot welds too much - but it does not work very well.

Maybe a better qaulity scope with better qaulity optics of the same size would gather more light and allow me to see through it better?

What sort of scopes did shooters fit to these Mk 3 rifles when they were in currect production?

Are the 3 spot welds a weak area - should I worry about the weight of scope I fit? If not, then maybe my 1.5-5 x 20 Whitetail would be a practical choice if I could find some suitable mounts ( non cast alloy) with thinner mounting claws to fit the scope plate safely?

[T 20]

A Nikko stirling 4 X 28 would work well and they were produced from 1955 so about the right period for a MK3.

The 1980's one my brother had came with the same mountings as fitted to the 1960's Webley and Nikko scopes and at 10 ounces in weight the spot welds should be ok.





All the best Mick

[johnbaz]

Hi Zooma

I once (stupidly ) fitted a scope on modern ally mounts to mine, the angle on the mounts is too acute, they acted like wedges and went under the spot welded feeble dumbell effort and lifted both ends slightly

I stopped as soon as I saw the rail lifting and removed the scope..

If you could find someone with a milling machine to make the feet of the mounts more vertical, I reckon it would grip the rail from the sides (imagine clamping molegrips on!!) that the job would be a good one as they won't go under it....

I have an older mk3 with the two stage trigger, it has screwholes in the top of the cylinder where a scope rail has been screwed on, unfortunately both the rail and the screws are missing..

I reckon the screws would be a British Association thread (BA) and not a problem, making a rail might be more troublesome


John

[torrens]

Hi zooma,
as regards silva's suggestion of a Weaver tube 'scope I bought one recently and can confirm it gives a better image than the old Nikko Sterling 4 x 20 types, but not quite as bright as a modern Hawke or Nikko 4 x 32. I got it for about £18 from Protek Supplies, they seem to regularly have older 'scopes on their website.

torrens

[edbear2]

Hi,
I would think about one of the old steel 7/8" tube Weaver scopes from the 50's or 60's - they were made up until the late 70's. Good optics, cheapish to buy and look the part. They often came with a good steel quality mounts that fit a variety of rails.
Cheers

I have one of these (a b6) on a Merc....may be a bit long for a MK3?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3122848...3867/lightbox/

Mounts;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3122848...3867/lightbox/

Quite a long one piece jobbie, so spreads the grip area

[torrens]

Hi edbear, I bought a B4 ( 4x mag as opposed to your 6x?) and this has exactly the same integral mount. The 'scope seems about 3" shorter than a B6.

torrens

[zooma]

A Nikko stirling 4 X 28 would work well and they were produced from 1955 so about the right period for a MK3.

The 1980's one my brother had came with the same mountings as fitted to the 1960's Webley and Nikko scopes and at 10 ounces in weight the spot welds should be ok.





All the best Mick

Thanks Mick.

I will see if I can find one anywhere and try to find some "old style" mounts that will not try to lever the scope plate off of the spot welds.

[zooma]

Hi Zooma

I once (stupidly ) fitted a scope on modern ally mounts to mine, the angle on the mounts is too acute, they acted like wedges and went under the spot welded feeble dumbell effort and lifted both ends slightly

I stopped as soon as I saw the rail lifting and removed the scope..

If you could find someone with a milling machine to make the feet of the mounts more vertical, I reckon it would grip the rail from the sides (imagine clamping molegrips on!!) that the job would be a good one as they won't go under it....

I have an older mk3 with the two stage trigger, it has screwholes in the top of the cylinder where a scope rail has been screwed on, unfortunately both the rail and the screws are missing..

I reckon the screws would be a British Association thread (BA) and not a problem, making a rail might be more troublesome


John

Thanks John,

Your experience is exactly what I am trying to avoid - but thanks for confirming my fears about the "modern" style of cast mounting feet acting as wedges that can prise the scope mounting plate away from the cylinder it is spot welded onto.

I could machine the "claws" off of the alloy scope mounts so they cannot wedge under the scope plate, but only clamping the plate from the side ( like a vice) would probably not be as secure when shooting as I would like it to be, so although you have a good idea, I think I will try to find a suitable period scope with the older style of scope mount fitted ( thinner "claws") or try to find a pair of this type of clamp that will allow me to fit my Whitetail 1.5-5 x 20 scope until I find a suitable scope that works of the correct vintage.

Your old style Mk 3 sounds interesting - do you think somebody broke their spot welds and tapped the cylinder in the same place to take a scope plate - or were they made that way before they cheapened the process by spot welding?

Making a new scope mounting plate for your Mk3 should not be too difficult if the rest of the rifle is good enough to warrant the time?...should be easy for a local model engineer to rustle one of these up for you.

[Troubledshooter]

The best thing would be to try and find one of the Webley '415' or '420' scopes with mounts incorporated, which were specifically designed for the Mk.III.
As has been said, you risk lifting the scope rail if you try and use modern mounts.

[zooma]

I have one of these (a b6) on a Merc....may be a bit long for a MK3?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3122848...3867/lightbox/

Mounts;

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3122848...3867/lightbox/

Quite a long one piece jobbie, so spreads the grip area

Hi Edbear,

So thats what a Weaver scope looks like - and the mount looks like the type I need to fit the Mk 3 as well!

Comparing your Mercury shown with the scope mounted against my Mk 3, I think it would fit perfectly.

Anyone got a Weaver scope to sell me?

[zooma]

The best thing would be to try and find one of the Webley '415' or '420' scopes with mounts incorporated, which were specifically designed for the Mk.III.
As has been said, you risk lifting the scope rail if you try and use modern mounts.

Thanks Troubledshooter,

I did not know about these Webley mounts designed for the Mk3, so that is another option for me to look out for.

What was the difference between the 415 and the 420 scopes ?

[Troubledshooter]

Thanks Troubledshooter,

I did not know about these Webley mounts designed for the Mk3, so that is another option for me to look out for.

What was the difference between the 415 and the 420 scopes ?

Both have 4x magnification, but the 420 has a slightly larger object lens and body tube.

[silva]

Hi
The B4 is about 28cm long. I've got my tube sizes mixed up, the Weaver scopes I meant are 3/4 inch or 19mm tube, though there are some 7/8" tube weavers about.
I will keep an eye open for you and give you the heads up if I see one as I'm keen on vintage glass.
Like the older plastic Bsa and Milbro scopes, the Webley scopes I've seen have pretty lousy optics, especially 30 years on.
A 22mm tube Pecar or a Hensoldt Diapi D would be the best quality period scope of the day. The Pecars were sold by Parker Hale and are often found on the Bsa Supersport 5, so some might have made it on to Mk3's of the well heeled !