Steyr Pistols in CO2 flavour

[zooma]

Although this thread has drifted away from the CO2 title a bit it is very topical and interesting.

I too am getting on a bit now and carry an old rugby injury to my neck that does not improve with age and so I am happy to look at and consider anything that may help me hit the black bits of the target more often.

I never liked the shorter match pistols, but recently came across a Bennelli Kite Young ( the shorter version of the standard Kite) and have to admit I am pleasently surprised by it.

My regular pistol is a Feinwerkbau P44, and I did try a short version of this same pistol for several weeks, but found it very difficult to get any consistant scores out of it and this is turn did nothing to help me change my opinion about the shorter length match pistols.

Now I have the Kite Young I am starting to change my mind about the shorter pistols and appreciate the lower weight and "dampened" sight picture (less wobbles) and would welcome the chance to try any other shorter length pistols to see if there is anything else out there that could suit me even better than the Kite.

After a reasonably successful evening with the Kite Young, my last card at the Rossendale Club last night was shot with my regular P44 and it may well have been a fluke, but taking the middle out of the card with 10 shots at 10 meters suggests that maybe I have still not yet found the shorter pistol that can perform for me as well as the regular length type I am used to - but I will keep working with the short Kite and will keep an open mind about finding a lighter and shorter pistol that will work well for me.

[derekm]

PP, we have a member with a CPM1 in our club. I've tried it and at one point was seriously thinking of one, as as you say, the balance is very much better. It was the fully adjustable grip of the Steyrs that put me onto that train of thought.

Robin, I appreciate what you are saying, which is why I'm concentrating on the FAS for the moment and generally keeping an eye open for an LP1 or 2.

Adrian, thanks for the suggestion to contact Ann. I may well do that later in the month when we return from a caravan trip.

Zooma, no problem that the thread has moved on; it's all very relevant to me and the combined comments may well assist others. Let's face it, it's not a "CO2 is better than PCP" (or vice versa) slanging match! It's a search for information prior to a potentially major purchase/investment.

Hope you have more cards like your last one. I've taken out the centre with 5 shots on odd occasions, but some of the other 5 have been in the rough!!!!

[silvershooter]

Re zooma's point about the shorter match pistols, the Morini 162 short has a standard length site base as the rear site has been moved back. So no disadvantage in that respect.

[zooma]

Re zooma's point about the shorter match pistols, the Morini 162 short has a standard length site base as the rear site has been moved back. So no disadvantage in that respect.

Good point - I remember that now - and I do still have my Morini 162E and like it very much, so maybe I should try to get a few shots with the short version to see if that could be the pistol I am looking for?

[RobinC]

You can move the sight base back on the LP2. The Steyr LP2 compact is light at a tad under 900gms, nicely ballanced, a very good trigger, and is reasonably cheap, although being a Walther enthusiast if I was returning to pistol I'd be seriously looking at the LP400 carbon compact.
If you are super fit and the key words are if you can hold it still a longer sight base will definately be an advantage. The top Koreans, men and women, at the London World Cup were even using extended front sites on their standard size LP10e's, they had extended them by approx an inch presumably right up to where it was just still possible to fit the equipment control box, they had also cut off the back of the grip to allow this, they both won and the guy shot 590 so it worked for him!
Just like the top rifle shooters, the top pistol shooters will not take a shot when the sight picture is moving, so we are back to if you can hold it still. They can hold anything still, we can't, but we are generaly more consistantly still with a lighter and shorter pistol which is overal better ballanced for our hold ability levels although we may have flashes of brilliance when we hold a heavier and longer pistol still.
As I said we have a national level squad shooter, winning championships, making finals with 570's+ with an LP2 compact, he thinks the lighter weight and better ballance is an advantage, he can afford anything, and has chosen a light compact. Perhaps the ultimate is the compact with Korean extended front sight?
Its a matter of comprimise, ballance, stillness of hold, over a more precise aim from a longer sight base, but a precise aim is useless if cant see it as you are shaking about like a willow in the breeze. You pays your money and takes your choice, mine is compacts.
Good shooting
Robin

[derekm]

Thanks Robin; that makes a lot of sense.

I watched a video the other day, of some top level competition and was shocked/surprised at the time the competitors spent on target before shooting. For better or worse, I'd been following the advice of the US Army pistol marksmanship manual, which recommends releasing the shot between second 3 and second 10. Admittedly, that's all I could manage with the Walther.

Another surprise was that I put the Tau 7 (one barrel weight close to the action) on the scale and it weighs 1100gm, exactly the same as the Walther, though they feel totally different on the end of my arm! As you say, it's the balance.

Attempted change of technique starting tonight!

[zooma]

Just completed a swap that leaves me with an almost new Steyer LP2.

Its not a compact, but the balance is noticeably different to my LP10 so I am looking foward to shooting it the next time I can get to the club.

[derekm]

I await your comments & judgement!

[hwtyger]

I also have a Tau 7 Junior. Its a REAL Junior, compared to the recent pistols, where they, simply said, only cut barrel and cilinder.
Its about 800 grms. It shoots VERY well, and keeps me honest, cause it harder to keep still than the 7 Match!
I LOVE it though!

[john_almighty]

PP, we have a member with a CPM1 in our club. I've tried it and at one point was seriously thinking of one, as as you say, the balance is very much better. It was the fully adjustable grip of the Steyrs that put me onto that train of thought.

regarding the cpm 1 adjustable grip you mentioned,
Do you mean just the adjustable palm shelf on the grip? I think the grip stays fixed apart from the palm shelf adjustment or can it be moved around on its axis.

[derekm]

regarding the cpm 1 adjustable grip you mentioned,
Do you mean just the adjustable palm shelf on the grip? I think the grip stays fixed apart from the palm shelf adjustment or can it be moved around on its axis.

No, I mean the LP1/2 grip itself. Apparently the Steyr grip is adjustable in all directions, to assist with finding "eyes closed" sight alignment. The CPM1 has a fixed grip/moveable palm shelf I believe.

[RobinC]

regarding the cpm 1 adjustable grip you mentioned,
Do you mean just the adjustable palm shelf on the grip? I think the grip stays fixed apart from the palm shelf adjustment or can it be moved around on its axis.

John
Most of the modern match pistols have the grip adjustable in rake and side to side, its not a lot but significant enough to get that final position that suits you best.
Good shooting
Robin

[RobinC]

Derek
You were right first time, the top few in the world are super super fit, they hold until they are still because they can, but will still prefer to get the shot away from final hold in under 8 secs. For most mortals its better closer to 6 secs.
As soon as you hold your breath it should go in 6 secs or sooner as best case. We have in the club a current national pistol coach and also the ex national pistol coach from the Uk's most successfull period ( he was the man who took Mick Gault to his peak), he is also a Commonwealth gold air pistol medalist and both of them recken 15 secs total is getting into an over long pistol hold.
We use the scatt for analysis and you can see the deteriation on the hold as it goes past those times. We also did some exercise tests with young (fit!) shooters to check breathing and breath holding ability. It surprised us that fit young people were getting oxygen depletion in around 8 secs or less on a held breath. So what do you think happens with us old farts! You don't hold as if you are pearl fishing when shooting, its breath out and hold until you feel pressured, and at a max that is around 7 secs. Most shooters don't understand how critical that time is, on a held breath oxygen depletion starts almost immediately, it effects your eyes first and foremost, the focus deteriates in that period quickly to a level where you either are blurred or not seeing what you think you are seeing, ie an imprinted image on the eye. The other effect of oxygen depletion is muscle weakness and the wobbles start. And, once its happened you need several deep breaths and time for the oxygen to replenish the weak eyes or muscles, so rejecting a shot when the focus goes or wobbles set in is good but remember to give it 30 secs to restore, how often I see shooters reject a shot which is good and then come straight back onto aim immediately before the oxygen is replenished which is bad. My recent work on the scatt has been with rifle shooters but pistol is just as relevent and probably more time critical, the best aims for the level I'm working with are in the first five seconds of a held breath, thats for claritity of focus and muscle stability.

With pistol I found that sighting focus ability was improved with useing as big a front post as possible and a huge back sight to get big gaps either side in the sight picture, on the Steyr compact its a 4.8mm front and the rear gap at 5mm, on the FAS its 4mm front and 4.5 rear, you need to buy a set of swiss files!
When I was shooting pistol I used my FAS for home practice to save air hassle and as its quieter, and found I shot as well as with my Steyr as it has a similar ballance.
Rifle is different as you work on getting that stable rock steady hold, but as soon as the breath is held to finalise the shot you are straight into that 6 second window.
Fun this shooting isn't it!!
Good shooting
Robin

[derekm]

Thanks again Robin; you are a mine of information. There was I watching the video of the competition, thinking I'd been trying to do it wrong for 5 or 6 years!! For normal people, the US Army is right then. (Sigh of relief!)

Your post brings us to another point; rear sight width. Again, for years I've been shooting with a wide rear sight, plenty of light each side of the front post. When I got the Walther, the previous owner had been using quite a narrow rear slot (so I made a new sight plate). The top pistol man in our club also uses quite a narrow rear on his CPM1. Then, I get the FAS and there's almost no light at all each side of the front post. I immediately start to think that that's maybe how it should be, if the manufacturer does it that way! I've tried it as is, but had alraedy decided to get the Swiss files to work.

I know , with pistol shooting especially, that "whatever suits you, is right", but what, if any, is the logic behind the FAS narrow rear plate? Maybe it's the norm with cartridge sport pistols?

[RobinC]

I know , with pistol shooting especially, that "whatever suits you, is right", but what, if any, is the logic behind the FAS narrow rear plate? Maybe it's the norm with cartridge sport pistols?

I think for many years it just seemed more logical to have close gaps, it appeared to be a higher degree of precision, people did not understand that with a small gap they were seeing refracted light around the edges and not white space, and also the bigger the gap the easier it is to judge a comparason on either side, and things move on, and those that look technically into why often gain an advantage whilst others just stick on tradition. Small and tight sights fall into that category, some manufacturers are not that close to inavative shooters so they stick with the old school. Your good level shooter should try a wide big sight picture he might shoot even better (or not!).
We have a training aid for new shooters which is a dummy pistol with huge sights, 4 inch wide back site, with an 1 inch and a 1/2 gap, and an inch wide front site, I think its fabulous, the sight picture is incredible!!!
Just wait, some one will do it, make a huge back site as big as will fit in the box, nothing in the rules to stop it other than it must fit the box, they'll shoot well, and then every one will do it!!
Good shooting
Robin