MTCs, Hawkes, Nikons etc: Some Opinions

[turtle]

I have been looking for a couple of mid range scopes for air rifles recently. I looked at a lot of scopes and examples of each model over the last few weeks and was surprised how epic the quality variration is in the £100-@200 range.

Initially looked at the Hawkes because of the reticles. I think the Map 6a is a lovely uncluttered reticle, but sadly nothing worked out with the Hawkes and here is why (and not all from the same shop):

3-9x40 AO EV Panorama - Magnification ring not on straight.
2.5-10x50 Digi Nite Eye - Reticle off centre. Subtle, but not hard to spot at all....
3-12x50 Digi nite Eye - Dent in front objective ring. About a 5mm depression!
3-12x50 Digit Nite Eye - optics sucked. Beyond 20 yards and with anything above 6x think bathroom window glass.

OK, so that was not too good from Hawke. Shocking in fact. I bought a little £60 2-7x32 Sport HD for my kids gun and theirs is optically very decent and they love the reticle, but zeroing it is a trial of patience and the clicks are, shall we say, not remotely consistent or accurate. The silly thing is that it is optically superior to all of the much more expensive digital Nite Eyes I looked through. By a mile. I should also add that the Panorama EV was much better optically than the Nite Eyes and a touch better than the Sport HD. I suspect that this is because the manufacturers just are not able to get decent optical quality out of a side parallax combo, which is more complicated and requires more lenses I believe. From what I have read, opinion on the Panorama EV is pretty good and this matches my experiences (aside from the canted magnification ring). That said, I think there are better options out there if you can spare another £30.

One more thing I noted with the Hawkes is that at anything above about 6-7x, if you shift eye postion, you get weird optical disturbances around the field of view, i.e. as you fractionally change alignment, parts go from sharp to blurry and back again as you move again. I know parallax is also an issue, but I would rather not have my eye balls assaulted when shooting. The Panorama had this, but not as badly as the Nite Eyes.

Onto MTC:

I ordered a 5-20 Genesis a while back but the optics were surprisingly poor, so it went back. I noticed the box was not sealed and suspect a duff unit that someone else had returned before. I could see why. Resolution was not good at all and the Hawke Panorama EV a lot better in terms of brightness, contrast and centre resolution (at the cost of more blurry edges). The Genesis also seemed to have a very narrow and 'distant' field of view compared to the Panorama EV. When you look through much more expensive scopes, the sense of 'intimacy' you have with the target is much greater. Its hard to describe, but varies considerably with different scopes. The Panorama EV was much better than the MTC Genesis in this regard.

...But then I looked through some Mambas and Mamba lites at BAR and what a revelation. Sure, eye position had to be correct (laterally speaking), but eye relief was flexible and the optics were a real surprise in this price range. they were nicely finished, nicely boxed and with good literature and frankly LIGHT YEARS ahead of the Hawkes. I find it astonishing that they are the same price, roughly. Mamba Lites are close to the Varmint/Panorama EV range (OK, £30 more) but much less than the Digi Nite Eyes and the Mambas are about the same as the Digi Nite Eye Hawkes.

OK, so here is what was wrong with ALL the Hawke Digi IR units I looked through: great at low mag, poor at high mag (blurry, milky, smeared....get the picture?). Awful. Build is nice on the higher end models, but QC is shocking. The brand new lens with a massive dent in the objective (but no damage to the finish) says it all.

Thinking of getting a Nite Eye? I wouldn't go near one again even if it was free. MTC? I have read the good and bad reviews and the two series I looked at were at the better end of the reviews. I am very, very impressed at what they are producing for the money. The reticles are great too, but bringing the AMD into the more middle range scopes (in price and weight) would be a good move for them. Its less busy.

One observation when comparing the Mamba and Mamba lite scopes is that, aside from being much heavier, the Mamba has a greater apparent magnification at the same indicated number i.e. 4x on the Mamba gives and image in which things look bigger/closer than the Mamba Lite at 4 x. I did this direct comparison and it is obvious. I preffered the regular Mamba in this regard, but the Lite was so much, well, lighter.

Nikon. How may do they produce that are suitable for air rifles? Not many. I tried the Nikon Pro Staff 3-9x40 AO after wanting a scope to go on a .22 for close range ferals/rats etc around buildings. This scope is a cracker. Optically superb, very clean reticle with fine cross hairs with a little dot at the centre. Very precise and build is top notch.If you don't want a busy reticle and have a budget of £180, this is well worth looking at. How the cross hairs will show up in dingy barns I have yet to find out, but the scope overall is very nice and I like the uncluttered view. For a gun shooting no more than 25 yards, 30 at a push, who needs a fancy ret?

I hope this helps for those of you thinking about a new scope.

[Alan-S]

How strange??

I have the Hawke Panorama 3-9x50 AO IR 1/2 mil dot and its a beautiful piece of kit, eye relief is about 3" and the optical quality is amazing.
I have not noticed any optical distortion like you mentioned turtle, even at 9x mag.
I have used it on 9x mag at night with a lamping kit and found it to be very easy to use.
The magnification ring is on straight, its a little stiff but is getting easier every time i use it.
Paralex adjustment works perfectly too.
Mine does not seem to have any build or QC or operational issues, i wonder if you got a lemon as i cant reccomend mine enough!

ATB
Al

[lucky trigger]

I use hawke panorama's on my .17hmr and my 22lr and have had none of the aforementioned quality issues

[Seamaster]

I got a 4-12x40 AO Panorama after hearing lots of good things about them. The sight picture was very poor with distortion at the edge and it suffered badly from internal reflections. I may have got a duff one but it put me off them.
I now have MTC Mamba Lites on my 3 pcps. They seem to me to be superior to anything else in the price range.
Just my opinion.

Chris

[Tank]

I've got an MTC Mamba with the G4a ret and I've shots stuff out to 200yds with it,(powder burner). A very nice scope for not a lot of cash. I also have a Nikon Buck masters which I have reviewed in this section. They are quality scopes and Nikon glass is quality for the price. Not much experience of Hawke apart from an old varmint which wasn't bad TBH.

[DS4IS]

As you can see from my signature, I have a number of Hawke scopes and my daughter also has a Panorama and I can honestly say that none of them suffer from the faults you have found. As a relatively cheap scope the Panorama seems to be excellent. The Sidewinder TAC30s I have are also excellent and commensurately better than the Panoramas. I've just bought a Falcon T50 for FT and this is better than all of them but it is also £100-£150 more than the Hawkes and probably not that much better.

Either I've been very lucky or you've been very unlucky - I think it's probably worth pursuing a bit further.

Good luck

[Jamie]

I have a Hawke Airmax 2-7 on my ultra and it's fine and dandy, but I had a look through some of the 'better' hawkes (digi nite eyes and panoramas ) at the MGF and they were awful. Not acceptable for a £50 scope, let alone a £100+ jobbie.

One of the lads in my stalking syndicate has a Hawke Endurance on a .308 and it seems ok, but they're secondhand german scope money, or nearly so. The Mamba on my hornet is much nicer, foxes out to 215 on the lamp and I can see them well enough to shoot to 300 on a clear night.

James

[Brianf51]

I have to add my bit here too. I firmly believe that generally you get what you pay for with scopes and as long as you buy something that was intended for the use to which to put it, you can't go far wrong.

I shoot HFT and when I started I went through a bunch of chep scopes to get me started and that is exactly what they did. I moved to the Hawke TAC30 fixed 10x42 because I love the reticle. Over some of the more challenging shoots this year I have found that when set in a certain fashion the TAC30 suffers in strongly differing light conditions (bright day in dark woods) and so have changed my settings to compensate, time will tell.

I have also been looking at the Bushnell Elite 6500 which has a much brighter image but it seems a lower depth of field when focused at mid range (HFT).

I must spring to Deben's (Hawke) defence here. I have found the QA reasonably good but backed up by astounding customer service. I own two TAC30's, two and half and one and half years old respectively. Recently both developed completely unrelated faults and I returned them to Deben for repair a month or so apart. Both were replaced and back in my hands within three days including carriage. Not something too many forms can boast these days. Well done to Heidi at Deben.

[Brianf51]

I have to add my bit here too. I firmly believe that generally you get what you pay for with scopes and as long as you buy something that was intended for the use to which to put it, you can't go far wrong.

I shoot HFT and when I started I went through a bunch of chep scopes to get me started and that is exactly what they did. I moved to the Hawke TAC30 fixed 10x42 because I love the reticle. Over some of the more challenging shoots this year I have found that when set in a certain fashion the TAC30 suffers in strongly differing light conditions (bright day in dark woods) and so have changed my settings to compensate, time will tell.

I have also been looking at the Bushnell Elite 6500 which has a much brighter image but it seems a lower depth of field when focused at mid range (HFT).

I must spring to Deben's (Hawke) defence here. I have found the QA reasonably good but backed up by astounding customer service. I own two TAC30's, two and half and one and half years old respectively. Recently both developed completely unrelated faults and I returned them to Deben for repair a month or so apart. Both were replaced and back in my hands within three days including carriage. Not something too many firms can boast that kind of service these days. Well done to Heidi at Deben.

[lucky trigger]

Im using Hawke Panorama's on my .177 pcp (3-9x50 ao map 6 ret) and .17hmr (4-12x40 ao map 6 ret) and a mtc Viper(4-16x50 christmas tree ret)on my 22lr and find the Panorama's have a much better field of view and perform better in low light than the Mtc Viper which suffers from white out as the light goes, that said i really like the Viper and it seems to suit my 22lr very well.

[brian747]

i use mostly MTC scopes i have mamba,s , vipers, viper connect, genisis, i have no problems with white out,
most of these scopes are also used with nv and do a great job, for the money great value ,
excellent optics, all in they meet my requirements

[Amac]

A fascinating read folks! I honestly believe that some of the scope ranges mentioned will suit one shooter better than the other. Considering that all of the lenses within this price range will no doubt be manufactured by the same company, wherever that happens to be, it is amazing how one person will think one brand or the other superior. The fact of the matter is that it just confirms how important it remains to actually look through a few prior to parting with your readies.

I have had, and still have for that matter, scopes by MTC and Hawke. Considering what was available within a similar price range only ten or so years ago, the standard of performance we can now enjoy within this price range is truly amazing. However, if you take a peek through a "high end" scope, you quickly realise that you get what you pay for. The best scope I currently have is a Bushnell 6500 Elite. It was manufactured in Japan and sports genuinely (in my opinion anyway) first class lenses and build quality. Plus its the only scope I own that does not lose its set zero if the parallax or magnification is adjusted. Most of the competition shooters I know currently prefer to use scopes by Leupold. These really are fine products. problem is they are also very expensive!

I also owned a couple of Nikons and liked them also. For my money though, at present, the "cheap" scope that suits my own personal needs and deteriorating eyesight the most has to be the Hawke Panorama. Genuinely excellent value for money, although I also like the MTC as well, just not as much!

Andy

[Gunslingerdan]

How strange??

I have the Hawke Panorama 3-9x50 AO IR 1/2 mil dot and its a beautiful piece of kit, eye relief is about 3" and the optical quality is amazing.
I have not noticed any optical distortion like you mentioned turtle, even at 9x mag.
I have used it on 9x mag at night with a lamping kit and found it to be very easy to use.
The magnification ring is on straight, its a little stiff but is getting easier every time i use it.
Paralex adjustment works perfectly too.
Mine does not seem to have any build or QC or operational issues, i wonder if you got a lemon as i cant reccomend mine enough!

ATB
Al

+1 on this, just had one fitted to my HW100 and apart from the mag ring being a bit stiff (is only a few weeks old though) but is getting better its a good bit of kit for the money.

[jumbuck]

I always think Hawke take bit of a pasting. I have only had one bad Hawke amongst many. The only ones i have at the moment are the Made in Japan Frontier SF which i have 3 and really like.The early Eclipse 3-9x50AOIR i really rate as a good alround air rifle hunting scope. I have had the Tasco AG3-9x50AO which are excellent, Tasco Predator 3-9x50AO which are rare and not the best optics and the Hawke Pro-Stalk 3-9x50AO which was like having a cataract on higher mag but the rest were good and had no complaints I think they offer great value for money, even the ones Made in Japan were a bargain new

[sundog]

The Nikons are superb scopes. Fantastic optics and solid build quality