.177 Barrel wanted for Webley Premier

[zooma]

I have a very nice boxed Webley Premier that I would like to enter in the new MPL competition - mainly because it has been suggested that Webley pistols are not likely to be very good for shooting acurately at 10 meters - and I like a challenge!

For this I need to find a .177 barrel as I cannot enter the competition with a .22.

Looking at page 112 of the Webely Air Pistol book it looks like my Premier has the "long link P55" so I am guessing I need the same P55 long link type to ensure it fits my Premier?

Any authoritive confirmation of this would be appreciated. If both types of long link barrel will fit then it increases my chances of finding a .177 barrel to fit.

The front of my Premier air cylinder is stamped 63 and I think it was made after June 1966 as it has the extra stop pin in the body to restrict trigger movement if any of this helps.

[zooma]

My Premier is an all steel model, and having removed the left hand grip plate I see it is stamped 73, so I guess this is the year of manufacture - does this affect the type of spare .177 barrel that will fit it - or will all Premier barrels fit all Premier variants?

[Rickenbacker]

The fifth pin (trigger stop) was added for series "D".

So broadly - if your pistol is blued, it is D series. If lacquered, it is E series.

From the batch numbers given, I expect it to be most likely a lacquer finish pistol with black grips. '73' being (probably) the year stamp. And there should be a month stamp under the grip too?

If it has brown grips, it is slightly unusual.

If however it is a blued pistol - with those stamps - It just might be a rare F series! (look for an "F" stamp near the trigger guard).


As you suggest - "P55" is the long link in the 3 piece cocking link arrangment for (all series of) the Premier.

The Senior shares the short and intermediate links (and the link pins) with the Premier, but the long link is (around 6mm) longer.

Therefore a Senior linkage will not cock a Premier.

Neither will a mk1 single linkage. It is all different, including the pins!

HTH - Phil

[beagle2]

Hi I also have a steel premier in .22 there seems to be a lot of them about and I must admit I do prefer shooting the .22 but as you say for competition or distances much over 10m a .177 is required. Barrels with the correct linkage are hard to find as I see it you have two options both involve buying another gun if you could find an identical gun to yours you could buy it and ether swap the barrels over and sell it on or keep the new one and sell your old one on or just keep them both it would probably work out cheaper than buying a new barrel at about £40.

[zooma]

The fifth pin (trigger stop) was added for series "D".

So broadly - if your pistol is blued, it is D series. If lacquered, it is E series.

From the batch numbers given, I expect it to be most likely a lacquer finish pistol with black grips. '73' being (probably) the year stamp. And there should be a month stamp under the grip too?

If it has brown grips, it is slightly unusual.

If however it is a blued pistol - with those stamps - It just might be a rare F series! (look for an "F" stamp near the trigger guard).


As you suggest - "P55" is the long link in the 3 piece cocking link arrangment for (all series of) the Premier.

The Senior shares the short and intermediate links (and the link pins) with the Premier, but the long link is (around 6mm) longer.

Therefore a Senior linkage will not cock a Premier.

Neither will a mk1 single linkage. It is all different, including the pins!

HTH - Phil

Hi Phil,

Thanks for your very helpful and informative responce.

My Webley Premier is blued and has brown grips and is it it's original box with all the supplied documents.

It also has a "F" stamped on the l/h side trigger guard, so I guess it is one of the "rare" F series models you refer to?

Maybe I should not change the barrel if it is a rare model, but try to find another Premier to buy that is already a .177 to compete with that instead of changing this one.

I understand that the Premier Mk 2 might be a better target choice (?) so I would be happy if i could find one of these to buy and use as well ( even though I prefer the Mk1 for all other details).

Any further advice on this subject would be appreciated.

[Rickenbacker]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for your very helpful and informative responce.

My Webley Premier is blued and has brown grips and is it it's original box with all the supplied documents.

It also has a "F" stamped on the l/h side trigger guard, so I guess it is one of the "rare" F series models you refer to?

Maybe I should not change the barrel if it is a rare model, but try to find another Premier to buy that is already a .177 to compete with that instead of changing this one.

I understand that the Premier Mk 2 might be a better target choice (?) so I would be happy if i could find one of these to buy and use as well ( even though I prefer the Mk1 for all other details).

Any further advice on this subject would be appreciated.

Hi Zooma,

You're welcome and appologies for the delayed reply.

Further research:
Regarding the blued "F series" that Hiller refers to in his book "Airpistols" - At the time of writing his book, Hiller had seen just 2 examples:
Both had 3 figure 'batch' numbers (on the front).
Both had the letter "L" stamped on the frame (behind the trigger guard).
"8 72" and "10 72" respectively under grip.

Elsewhere Hiller mentions seeing one example of a blued Premier, frame stamped "F" with "1 73" under grip. This he supposes is a D - E series over-lap. This example is the best fit with your pistol.

With my limited resources:
I have found a blued Premier (brown grips) with grip number "3 73" that was auctioned in 2000 (sold as a "F series" Premier).

I think it far more likely that blued 'post- D series' Premiers (assuming grip numbers of 3 72 - 3 73) were simply blued "E series", as it seems obvious to me that they were marked the same as early Lacquered pistols. i.e. batch numbers of 2,3 or 4 figures - Dated grip numbers - And various frame stamps, the most common being "F"!

Either way around, a blued 5 pin Premier (boxed) is a nice model to have!

----

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about changing barrels and using it carefully, unless it's condition was very near 'mint'. If you can find a .177 barrel that is!

To buy a new barrel & linkage as spare parts would cost a fair bit (£70-ish?). If you can find the parts in-stock.

You may also need to buy a new breech seal, and fettle it to fit a .177 barrel (as it has probably formed to fit the .22 barrel). And you could buy a new barrel axis pin & locking screw, if you wanted to preserve the original.

----

I don't see an advantage from using an alloy mk2 pistol for 10M, unless the later version mk2 has better (bigger) sights.
The early mk2 seems to have the same barrel (and tiny foresight) as the mk1 Premier.
Later mk2s have what looks more like a Tempest barrel. But I don't know if the sights are bigger.

As you can probably guess - I struggle with the small size of the foresight. And personally I struggle with the distance from my eye to the foresight. Its too close for my distance glasses to focus on it.

Phew - sorry for the long post - HTH - Phil

[zooma]

Hi Zooma,

You're welcome and appologies for the delayed reply.

Further research:
Regarding the blued "F series" that Hiller refers to in his book "Airpistols" - At the time of writing his book, Hiller had seen just 2 examples:
Both had 3 figure 'batch' numbers (on the front).
Both had the letter "L" stamped on the frame (behind the trigger guard).
"8 72" and "10 72" respectively under grip.

Elsewhere Hiller mentions seeing one example of a blued Premier, frame stamped "F" with "1 73" under grip. This he supposes is a D - E series over-lap. This example is the best fit with your pistol.

With my limited resources:
I have found a blued Premier (brown grips) with grip number "3 73" that was auctioned in 2000 (sold as a "F series" Premier).

I think it far more likely that blued 'post- D series' Premiers (assuming grip numbers of 3 72 - 3 73) were simply blued "E series", as it seems obvious to me that they were marked the same as early Lacquered pistols. i.e. batch numbers of 2,3 or 4 figures - Dated grip numbers - And various frame stamps, the most common being "F"!

Either way around, a blued 5 pin Premier (boxed) is a nice model to have!

----

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about changing barrels and using it carefully, unless it's condition was very near 'mint'. If you can find a .177 barrel that is!

To buy a new barrel & linkage as spare parts would cost a fair bit (£70-ish?). If you can find the parts in-stock.

You may also need to buy a new breech seal, and fettle it to fit a .177 barrel (as it has probably formed to fit the .22 barrel). And you could buy a new barrel axis pin & locking screw, if you wanted to preserve the original.

----

I don't see an advantage from using an alloy mk2 pistol for 10M, unless the later version mk2 has better (bigger) sights.
The early mk2 seems to have the same barrel (and tiny foresight) as the mk1 Premier.
Later mk2s have what looks more like a Tempest barrel. But I don't know if the sights are bigger.

As you can probably guess - I struggle with the small size of the foresight. And personally I struggle with the distance from my eye to the foresight. Its too close for my distance glasses to focus on it.

Phew - sorry for the long post - HTH - Phil

Thanks Phil.

My boxed "F" series is pretty close to mint and show no signs of ever being dismantled, and the original box is still quite crisp with the 3 original documents still inside looking like they have never been read ( still flat no creases etc) but a little yellow with age.

My reasoning for thinking the Mk 2 Premier may make a better target pistol choice is down to the 12 groove rifled barrel and the lighter overall weight when compared with my "F" series Mk 1.

Until I try one I will not know - but in theory at least it could be better?

[Rickenbacker]

Thanks Phil.

My boxed "F" series is pretty close to mint and show no signs of ever being dismantled, and the original box is still quite crisp with the 3 original documents still inside looking like they have never been read ( still flat no creases etc) but a little yellow with age.

My reasoning for thinking the Mk 2 Premier may make a better target pistol choice is down to the 12 groove rifled barrel and the lighter overall weight when compared with my "F" series Mk 1.

Until I try one I will not know - but in theory at least it could be better?

I guess it certainly could be!

As above - I think you will find the early mk2s have very 'mk1' looking barrels (source: 1970s Webley info leaflet).

Perhaps the 12 groove barrel you mention may be the Tempest-ish one as seen fitted to the later mk2s?

I guess the mk2 (1st version = 31 oz advertised weight) is a few ounces less than a mk1.

To me, the drawbacks are the tiny sights and the tricky recoil - But I'll update you when I've fettled this .177 Senior barrel onto my modest late "E" series...

And I'm thinking of building up the foresight with weld, shaping it back, and making a wider rearsight leaf

ATB - Phil

[zooma]

To me, the drawbacks are the tiny sights and the tricky recoil - But I'll update you when I've fettled this .177 Senior barrel onto my modest late "E" series...

And I'm thinking of building up the foresight with weld, shaping it back, and making a wider rearsight leaf

ATB - Phil [/QUOTE]


Now that does sound like a good idea, and the only modification is being made to a spare .177 barrel, and the rear sight leaf could be exchanged and the original barrel reinstated to keep the pistol "pure" - but it would improve the sight picture considerably, and if done well it could actually enhance the pistol as well as improving the usability.

With some specific target grips it would begin to make your Senior into a Serious target springer - ideal for the MPL competition that is just starting!

[Rickenbacker]

Now that does sound like a good idea, and the only modification is being made to a spare .177 barrel, and the rear sight leaf could be exchanged and the original barrel reinstated to keep the pistol "pure" - but it would improve the sight picture considerably, and if done well it could actually enhance the pistol as well as improving the usability.

With some specific target grips it would begin to make your Senior into a Serious target springer - ideal for the MPL competition that is just starting!

Ooo, a proper target grip on a Webley! That would be nice

Version #2 of the foresight idea could be to Araldite ™ a wider blade on there. As my welding 'skills' could warp the whole barrel out of shape.

Version #3 could be to have my local precission engineering shop do both sights!

And thanks, I must look up this competition of yours ...

ATB - Phil

[zooma]

Hi Phil,

I was also thinking about bonding on a spare front sight element from a Feinwerkbau 65 ( or similar) and just making a simple copy of the rearsight plate, but with a bigger notch, and keeping the original safe for future reference - but I need to find a spare .177 barrel first.

I seem to remember a target grip made by Beeman to fit the Webley Senior some time back, and I am told there is a grip maker here on BBS who makes grips from walnut - maybe he could help?


The MPL is looking good - and the banter between the first two clubs to sign up for it is at Olympic standard - and very funny. If this represents the attitiude of the competitiors then I think it will be a very enjoyable competition and hope more clubs join in the New Year as this will give us time to knock any rough eges off anything that does not work as planned.

It is refreshing to find competitors that can compete at a good level that do not take themselves too seriously.

Recoiless pistols score DOWN if they hit a line - but recoiling pistols score UP if they hit a line and also gain a 1 point bonus per card to even things up a bit. I think it should be fun and hope to see some Webleys taking part.

ATB Bob.

[I. J.]

Hi Phil,

. as this will give us time to knock any rough eges off ....

ATB Bob.

Otherwise known as the opposition.

ATB
Ian

[zooma]

I did try a .177 Tempest at the club last night as it does offer a much better grip than the Premier, but the example I had needs some work to improve the trigger so I was unable to judge how realistic it would be to enter it in the MPL.

I had ony just got the pistol and only had time to adjust the breach seal so the barrel would close (!) so I will take a look at the trigger to reduce the weight needed to make it work and to see how smooth I can make it.

Hoepfully it will be possible to make it as smooth as my .22 Premier F series - but I would still like a .177 barrel for it as I just like using it!