Of interest to everyone in the uk

[Bjacobs571]

You say "The OP claims 1949 deaths in the years 2010/11 through the illegal use of firearms. "

but the figures in the orginal posts says

"The OP claims 1949 deaths and injuries in the years 2010/11 through the illegal use of firearms. "

that is why you don't agree with his figures you misread them

[LongReinette]

I'm not so sure if those prove anything either way. Gun crime was rising steadily before the ban, it's kept rising but possibly at a slower rate than it would of if handguns weren't banned? Who knows? Clearly it didn't make the impact they made out it was going to make but no one can be sure of what really would of taken place

Its possible that gun crime would have risen at a higher rate with out the ban. It may even be probable. But what the figures indisputably show is that legally held firearms are not the primary drivers behind the use of firearms in crime.

The anti-gun brigade always like to point to the US and the high crime and murder rates there correlated with the high level of gun ownership there. But across the border in Canada, they have a very low murder and violent crime rate and gun ownership dwarfs even that of the US. Hell, most houses in Switzerland contain assault rifles, yet its one of the safest places to live in.the.world.

Gun crime is only loosely linked to gun ownership rates. Its more about a culture of criminal violence than anything else.

The majority of armed crime is still carried out with shotguns <snip>
tac

Is that true? I would have thought the majority of gun crime involved replicas, fake guns, toy guns, bananas in socks, fingers in pockets, converted starter pistols and flare guns, and illegally imported handguns from the US, eastern Europe and other parts......

[riflehunter583]

it seems that whatever laws have been introduced, they have not improved the situation that for shaw.

and innocent law abiding people who own guns and use them within the law are penalised for it and the easy target for politicians, police forces and the general public.

Perhaps the police should be better at controlling the black market in gun movements, as this is where the real police work is, not with all the red tape for poor old law abiding shooters

[hobojock]

as usual its always the innocent people just looking to enjoy firearms in a safe and legal way that are kicked to the ground and made to feel guilty about a fantastic hobby that is carried out safely !!!!!!!!!!

THESE ARE FROM OUR CLUB WEBSITE



OF INTEREST TO EVERYONE IN THE UK
(19/7/12) Home Office Figures

THE CRIMINAL SHOOTER - ENGLAND AND WALES
Deaths and injuries caused by the illegal use of guns (excluding airguns.)
1969 - - - - 173
1988 - - - - 410
2008/9 - - - 1,764
2010/11- - - 1,949

THE LEGAL SHOOTER - ENGLAND AND WALES
Certificates for the legal use of guns
1988 - - - - 1,037,400
2008/9 - - - - 713,674
2010/12- - - - 705,516

CRIMES INVOLVING THE USE OF HANDGUNS
1988 - - - - 1,484
1998/9 - - - 2,687
2008/9 - - - 4,275
2010/11- - - 3,105

SO..... since 1988, there are now five times as many deaths and injuries from armed crime whilst legal firearm ownership has been reduced by 1/3rd.

Pistols have been banned from legal use for most practical purposes, (reduced by around 98%) whilst the criminal use of pistols has increased considerably since the "ban."
NOW tell the victims that banning or licensing saves lives.....

Figures from Home Office publications from 1969 to 2012, the most recent being-
"Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2010/11:Supplementary Volume 2 to Crime in England and Wales 2010/11." Sarah Osborne, Ivy Lau and Andrew Britton, Edited by Kevin Smith. ISBN 978 1 84987 623 0.

and
"Firearm Certificates in England and Wales 2010/11" Jabeen Paracha. 22/3/2012, ISBN 978 1 84987 687 2.

[greenman]

Speeding does not cause crashes. driving recklessly causes crashes, but never simply breaking the speed limit.I don't really take notice of the speed limits. I drive to the conditions of the road. Sometimes driving much faster than the limit, other times much slower, and I have never had so much as a bump in my life. I've been driving since I was 17 and I'm now 34

lol nuff said....i rest my case .

[buffalohump]

Speeding does not cause crashes. driving recklessly causes crashes, but never simply breaking the speed limit.I don't really take notice of the speed limits. I drive to the conditions of the road. Sometimes driving much faster than the limit, other times much slower, and I have never had so much as a bump in my life. I've been driving since I was 17 and I'm now 34

Try telling my dad that. Oh no I can't. He was killed by an idiot doing 60mph in a 40mph limit in broad daylight in dry clear conditions. Unbelievable arrogance such as this will bite you in the backside one day!

[kevin42]

Four things happened that increased the number of illegal guns in the UK.

1) The USSR imploded on itself - Result - Lots of poor people with access to saleable guns.

2) Northern Ireland found peace - Result - Lots of people who previously had a lot of power when they had a cause wanted to keep the standard of living they had become used to equals lots of saleable guns. Why do you think they never agreed to decommision all the weapons? Worth too much money perchance?

3) Eastern European countries allowed into EU - Lots of poor people with access to saleable guns with the added bonus of free movement of people and goods across borders.

4) It became fashionable to be a W****R (sorry I meant Gangsta). Disaffected kids living on sink estates with no future feel empowered by by a 9Millie in the waistband.

I do believe that none of the above situations was caused by anyone in Britain who wanted to do a bit of pest control or put some free range organic meat on the table.

Please feel free to agree/ disagree/discus.

Off my soap box now.

[Promettwo]

THESE ARE FROM OUR CLUB WEBSITE




SO..... since 1988, there are now five times as many deaths and injuries from armed crime whilst legal firearm ownership has been reduced by 1/3rd.

Pistols have been banned from legal use for most practical purposes, (reduced by around 98%) whilst the criminal use of pistols has increased considerably since the "ban."
NOW tell the victims that banning or licensing saves lives.....

Figures from Home Office publications from 1969 to 2012, the most recent being-
"Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2010/11:Supplementary Volume 2 to Crime in England and Wales 2010/11." Sarah Osborne, Ivy Lau and Andrew Britton, Edited by Kevin Smith. ISBN 978 1 84987 623 0.

and
"Firearm Certificates in England and Wales 2010/11" Jabeen Paracha. 22/3/2012, ISBN 978 1 84987 687 2.

And now we are having (again) the same arguement in the USA (again). I can see both sides of the arguement but where do you go when there is also an armed civilian vigilante (security guard) who walks away from a death whilst patrolling a housing estate. Supposedly the man would not do as he was told. Do we really want to go down that road??.

[tugg]

Lmao what is it with the fake limp

coz their jeans are to far down their arse

[manxteddy]

The recent business in the USA is going to have yet another negitive effect on legal gun use here.
The media need to realise that the USA is not Britain we don't go around armed do we !! American history is not our history.
Well we didn't have gun crime as such till all these 'visitors arrived'.
What happened to your traditional armed robbery with a sawn off shotgun
I don't remember calls for banning shotguns then .
Now we have armed police which is not what you want to see when going shopping in Chester or any other civilised city.
Trouble is they wont go away as life is too good here with standards fought for politically by British People over the years since the Norman Yoke was plonked on our shoulders

Just as well I won't be around in 50 years time but my heart goes out to our children, what sort of society will they have.
It's not what our soldiers and citizens fought and died for in the 20th century is it !

Heavens I'm getting grumpy

[adie jaques]

I've only just taken the time to read this post, so my tuppenceworth is a bit late.

The OP claims 1949 deaths in the years 2010/11 through the illegal use of firearms.

This figure, around 37 unlawfull killings per week, is total bollox. The UK has around 600 murders per year and the vast majority do not involve firearms.

ISBN 978 1 84987 623 0 is a good starting point, given the OP uses it as his reference. Here is a link directly to it;

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publica...12?view=Binary

If that doesn't work then here is a quote from page 55

In 2010/11, there were 58 fatal injuries caused by the use of a firearm, an increase from the 40 recorded the previous year. The 58 fatal injuries recorded in 2010/11 include the 12 people killed by Derrick Bird in June 2010. However, serious injuries decreased by 18 per cent from 404 in 2009/10 to 330 in 2010/11, continuing the long-term downward trend.

though on page 18 it says:

In 2010/11, there were 60 shooting homicides recorded. This is an increase of 19 on the previous year and includes the 12 victims of the Cumbria shootings on 2 June 2010.

Can't both be right, obviosly. But both figures a little less than the 1949 initially quoted.

Now, ISBN 978 1 84987 623 0 is a long document, 118 pages to be exact, I only glossed over the first few pages, then used the index to go direct to a few relevent pages, and didn't bother reading the rest. I would suggest that whoever posted this on the OPs club website didn't even bother to read the index.

I've not posted this to start an arguement, more to question why no-one seems to have checked the facts, and why when as all the numbers quoted are wrong, the thread is a sticky.

Pity you didn't read the thread, it said "deaths and injuries".

[Mancbenn]

My son came back from the gym the other day and told me that someone had left a full shotgun cartridge belt hung up and left unattended. It amazes me that somebody with such a low IQ could get a shotgun license, it honestly makes me laugh out loud!

[1952paul0]

I'm not so sure if those prove anything either way. Gun crime was rising steadily before the ban, it's kept rising but possibly at a slower rate than it would of if handguns weren't banned? Who knows? Clearly it didn't make the impact they made out it was going to make but no one can be sure of what really would of taken place

I applaud you on your balanced view. However it is true that most chrime is by illegal shooters, and that any loss of freedoms for the upright and honest citizen should be mourned. We will never get our guns back and we have done nothing to deserve such treatment by the so called keepers of democracy, justice and rule of law. atb., Paul

[Huertecilla]

BUT there is a massive difference between driving well within the limits of the car and some, would be hard case packing a shoota.

Indeed; a car lulls users in a false sense of security, packs far more Joules, kills a lót more people.

Speeding with a car is VASTLY more of a risc than owning a gun. Just do the maths on the extra Joules.

A gun furthermore is diametrically different form a car in that a gun is perceived as dangerous wherras cars are not hence the useres are fundamentally treating them differently. Cras ´provoke´ risc behaviour, guns the contrary.

Me, I have raced anything on wheels for 23 years and don´t speed on the open road; if anything I am a moving road block únder the max. The max is after all just thát; a maximum and it is ok to go a bit slower. I strongly objet to speeding motorist overtaking as those are fáctually endangering the occupants of the overtaken car.
The weight of acar x speed = adn véry few drivers are capable of controlling their vehicle if shit happens. I am yet don´t speed but I would want a live fire arm to be able to defend the home/family as law enforcement doesn´t.

Attempting to deminish crime by banning guns is like ditto drunk driving by making it more difficult for sober people to obtain a driver´s license.

[Kyoto]

Completed as requested

ATB

Ken