Mk3 Deep Discharge

[David Snook]

I have just had a gun back that is "DEAD".

After examination I found the battery was completely discharged and had been left in on in the "off safe" position with the isolation switch on. This had completely drained the battery over the course of a few weeks.

Just leaving the gun on charge overnight restored the gun to its previous working condition.

The symptoms of a deeply discharged gun are:

1. No light and will not fire (obvious)

2. Nothing happens initially when the charger is plugged in.

3. Over the course of a few tens of minutes of charging the LEDs flicker and then flash regularly. This indicates that there is enough voltage in the battery for the electronics to function correctly and the gun is charging normally.

If this ever happens to you, please do not panic, just simply plug the charger in and leave overnight and the gun will be restored to perfect working order in the morning. None of the programmed settings will be lost and the battery is designed to survive deep discharge cycles without damage (in fact it might be even slightly beneficial, even though NiMh batteries do not suffer from memory effect).

I rather think that this has happened on a few occasions in the past where units have been returned to me with flat batteries and no fault found after charging.

Just to remind owners that the gun will go into a low current sleep mode and will flash and beep if left on without firing for 15 minutes. It will stay in this mode for weeks, depending on the initial charge capacity left after shooting.

Please remember to switch the isolation switch off when putting the gun away, it is safer and could save you the frustration of waiting overnight for the gun to charge.

David

[Rapidnick]

Sorry if this post seems a little negative but here goes. I am not a Daystate Mk 3 owner but I like the look of it very much. However, this post, whilst refreshingly honest, means that a Mk 3 owner has yet ANOTHER rechargeable battery to worry about along with his/her digital camera, mobile phone, laptop etc some of which can be mains powered if the battery has failed for some reason or is in need of charging.
It does make you think when you have to add your AIR RIFLE to that list!!
I am a well organised person with loads of rechargeable batteries of all kinds but get caught out from time to time with appliances needing them-mainly my digital camera and especially the flashgun. I think I would go nuts if my air rifle was not usable when I intended to go shooting on the spur of the moment!
Am I alone in thinking that in spite of enabling its amazing performance, this is perhaps a step too far in battery use?

[lionel]

You get so many hundreds of shots per charge that there's no need to worry. All you have to do is give it a charge once in a while and otherwise forget about it. I'm not too organised and it's never been a problem for me.

Lionel

[Phil_Oxon]

I only charge mine up every few months and I have never had a spot of bother with it. It's a wonderful weapon and I would recomend to anyone.

[I. J.]

You get so many hundreds of shots per charge that there's no need to worry. All you have to do is give it a charge once in a while and otherwise forget about it. I'm not too organised and it's never been a problem for me.
Lionel

Overnight charging the batteries in my Mk3s is just a monthly routine. Bit like remembering to buy pellets.
Even my well used Morini pistol with its electronic trigger system has performed without fault for the past two years so Im not worried about this new aspect of trigger technology.
My only concern with Daystate is the delayed service offered to us left handers. On both occasions I have had to wait two months after right handed rifles have been on sale for my a left hand version. On both occasions this was blamed on suppliers. LEFTIES UNITE! (Gripe over )
Thank you David Snook for bringing a possible but improbable fault to my attention.

[sniper22]

My only concern with Daystate is the delayed service offered to us left handers. On both occasions I have had to wait two months after right handed rifles have been on sale for my a left hand version. On both occasions this was blamed on suppliers. LEFTIES UNITE! (Gripe over )
Thank you David Snook for bringing a possible but improbable fault to my attention.

i cant mention one manufacturer who releases a left hand version of a gun at the same time as the right hand guns. daystate are not alone are they?.

davestate - try taking the silencer adaptor off and the barrel shroud, shorten the shroud by 60mm and refit. this makes the gun even more balanced and pointable.

[baz]

I have no idea what guns are being used in FT, in fact I didnt know it was still going on

But from my perspective (which is based on hunting/benchrest/old boys HFT) the MK3 Daystate is far enough ahead of the 400 series to easily account for the extra cost, I fettle S400 series myself, mainly because they need it straight from the box, especially areas like the trigger and bolt, add on the price of a decent thumbhole stock and things start looking different, value wise

Steyr air rifles have no appeal to me, I have used a couple but they are meccanno to me so I wont voice an opinion on shooting one

AA are a really good make, they need to try a bit of polishing before blacking though, I am sure they will bring a new rifle out sooner or later that will be cutting edge but PCP wise they are lagging behind, nice wood on the Walnut (sometimes) but the stock style is old hat

Even BSAs latest S10 has a bit of style, especially the bull barrel, I am off to wash my mouth out........

The Hornet is one excellent rifle

Baz

[David Snook]

Rapidnick

I think it is worth considering the immense shot capacity of a Mk3 battery that all but removes worries with regards to battery maintenance, before ruling out batteries for airgun use.

A charge will give typically more than 7000 shots (even more now we are using lean charge technology). The battery will last about 24 days if left continuously on and the battery is good for at least 1000 charging cycles, with a very low self-discharge rate when left idle.

All this adds up to trouble-free ownership where the gun only needs occasional charging in normal use.

I am convinced that an electronic action is far superior that its mechanical cousin in terms of efficiency, speed, gun handling, user benefits and ultimate gun/shooter accuracy, that far outweighs the “inconvenience” of occasional charging. It also opens the way to even more startling gun developments that simply would not be possible with mechanical actions.

However, there are applications where mechanical actions are preferred and I do not think that mechanical triggers are going to be replaced overnight by CDT technology. I suggest that both technologies will run in parallel with electronics providing the ultimate in performance and features.

Maybe electronic action performance represents a step too far for their mechanical counterparts to follow.

David

[airgunner2388]

David

I have a MKIII (A) amongst the MKIII's I own. Is it possible to get this rifle over to the re-chargable battery method? The reason for asking is I have had to change the batteries on the rifle and the last time I did it I broke the wires and it had to be returned to Daystate to have it fixed.

Regards
Barry

[Gary C]

Ok David.

Now you're sounding like a mouthpiece for Daystate.

I won the UKHFT last year with a MK3. I now shoot an AA400. It is EVERY bit as accurate and far more user friendly. It is also more reliable. You know you wont get beeped at or your battery die mid shoot.

The MK3 has a higher shot count but for the extra weight you could buy and use a BSA bull Barrel and get more and a better balance.

You also have the issue of conformal coating getting damaged and the thing going pop.

Mk3 is 2.5x the price of a standard 400. It is better.

It is the same price as my GML 400 with PW Sporter stock.

I prefer the 400.

[Davestate]

Gary, FYI the balance ha been shifted to a near perfect position on the Mk3 Sporter, much better than a BSA or AA.
(Not arguing, just stating a fact that you may not be aware of)

[Sniper 296]

Least you can get the same accuracy from a AA S400 for a lower budge like mine...

But if I had the money I would go for a MK3 walnut....


but there is one thing that plays on my mined about them... Are they OK in the rain

[David Snook]

Gary

Please do not confuse my almost evangelical enthusiasm for electronic gun technology with supposed commercial or even selfish support for Daystate.

This has little to do with Daystate and very much more to do with a dream Steve Harper and I started when we developed CDT back in the 1980’s. We really do believe it has an overwhelming advantage over mechanical systems that we want to introduce to other fellow shooters. We are very serious and committed to this belief.

Back then CDT made very little impact on the airgun scene and it has only been through dogged determination by Steve and myself with the help and support from Daystate, that has made CDT the success that it is today.

Meanwhile we are very mindful that certain people will find electronics and guns an unacceptable mix and we acknowledge that mechanical actions are a better solution in certain applications. We cannot please everyone, but at the very least we providing diversification in the airgun world where people can take their choice.

Reliability problems that you mention have all been addressed, many were caused by non-electronic failures where many people were quick to blame the new technology. Much work and effort has been made to eliminate problems and I am a sure Harper Classic guns and Daystate have gone the extra mile in preventing “disappointments”. Daystate report very few problems now.

Recent 3rd party bench rested accuracy tests have revealed the accuracy potential of the Mk3, making it the most accurate gun tested, although the tests were not comprehensive it does suggest that a still action, fast lock time and reduction of muzzle blast turbulence increases accuracy at longer ranges. I believe that the shooter is always more important the gun, but the whole accuracy performance is always the sum of the parts, the shooter and the gun.

The Mk3 RT is heavier than the AA400, but that has little to do with the electronics, it has more to do with their robust construction. The new Mk3 is now shorter and lighter in response to user feedback. According to our research the Mk3 RT with lean charge is the most efficient gun available when you consider reservoir air capacity. The beeps that you mention can be turned on and off at will.

The Mk3 is more expensive than the AA400 as you have rightly pointed out; cutting edge technology has its price. Cost reduction is going to be one of our goals over the coming years and that will hopefully be achieved with volume and more cost effective technology.

Gary, you have probably done more than most in endorsing CDT technology by winning the UKHFT championship last year with the Mk3, you have elected to shoot a different gun this year, I wish you luck and every success, I also respect your choice of gun and opinions.

However I do think it is a little unfair for accusing the Mk3 for being what it is. It is like criticising a horse for winning and then accusing it of being a thoroughbred.

David

[Lash13]

I use a Mk3b because it felt just right and I shoot better with it, (a confidence thing I guess) inspite of the fact that I know most PCP guns are just as accurate. So there aint no logic to it.

We all enjoy performing maintenance tasks on our rifles its part of the enjoyment...we wouldnt moan about wiping the gun down with oil so why moan about charging the battery every few months.

The Mk3 is the first rifle (of many) I've had, that I would never part with.

Lee

[nathan99]

NimH batteries do NOT have low self-discharge.

They are actually a rather poor choice if self-discharge is a concern.

Even the best ones lose 50 percent of their charge in 2-3 months. Leave a fully charged rifle unused for six months and it is unlikely to work at all.

I'm with Rapidnick on this one. It makes no sense to me to have yet another device which needs charging regularly with a unique charger and contains special batteries that may or may not be available as spares in years to come, and probably needs a soldering iron to change them. It is even more silly given that the Mk3 seems not to have any great energy demands i.e. it does not need a large capacity battery.

If I were in the market for such an electrically dependent rifle I would be much happier if it used user-replaceable lithium primary cells ( > 10 year shelf life ) e.g. CR123 or lithium AA or AAA, with option to use alkaline or Nimh rechargeable, ideally two of them, with a simple switch to select between the main one and a reserve cell.

Otherwise a lithium secondary (rechargeable) cell would be the next best choice, provided it was an industry standard size so I could be sure of finding a replacement in 20 years time.

As for the implication of user error by leaving the rifle switched on, I would expect a circuit design for this application to enter a "sleep" mode with negligible battery drain if left switched on by mistake, which would instantly "awake" as soon as the trigger was pulled to the first stage, or the safety operated etc.

I struggle to understand why an NimH cell was selected for this application. It is inexpensive, and the charging circuit is also inexpensive. So it would make sense in a budget priced rifle. But surely a Mk3 buyer is entitled to expect the best ?

But the use of lithium primary cells would also save the cost of a charger, and the connector for the rifle etc.

Just trying to give some constructive criticism :-)