Multi-shot air pistol

[magicniner]

The bloke with the g10 producing less than a joule must either have a faulty chrono or a g10 in desperate need of fettling.I understand they can go to up to 300 fps,just cos that particular one doesn't is neither here nor there.

But as it's .177 and so can fire steel bb or darts it's capable of causing a level of harm which results in it still being an air pistol, if it fired plasic bb at low power it would be airsoft & a RIF

- Nick

[harvey_s]

But as it's .177 and so can fire steel bb or darts it's capable of causing a level of harm which results in it still being an air pistol, if it fired plasic bb at low power it would be airsoft & a RIF

- Nick

Where is the bore size, or missile used to define an air weapon or RIF

Rather than getting into quoting long sections of the Firearms act and VCR bill - the Assoc. of Chief Police Officers and the BASC seem to sum it up quite well here: http://www.dorset.police.uk/pdf/acpo...to_vcr_act.pdf

the relevant bit is on Page 8: "The official position is that guns firing projectiles generating a KE level below one joule
are not regarded as firearms. However, it is widely accepted that kinetic energy of more than one joule (0.74 ft-lb) is capable of lethality and most air weapons fall within this category."

To me that would make a G10 a RIF as its power is generally below 1 joule (5.5gr BB @ 215-250fps)....So whilst I agree it isn't in practice painted a bright colour to comply with the VCR bill - It actually should within the letter of the law....

[jassi]

The famous Gat was/is an air pistol, even though it was very low powered and I think the current legislation simply 'forgot' to take account of older less powerful air pistols, hence the apparent confusion. Just another example of how poorly thought out the current legislation is

Ian

[magicniner]

Where is the bore size, or missile used to define an air weapon or RIF

Rather than getting into quoting long sections of the Firearms act and VCR bill - the Assoc. of Chief Police Officers and the BASC seem to sum it up quite well here: http://www.dorset.police.uk/pdf/acpo...to_vcr_act.pdf

the relevant bit is on Page 8: "The official position is that guns firing projectiles generating a KE level below one joule
are not regarded as firearms. However, it is widely accepted that kinetic energy of more than one joule (0.74 ft-lb) is capable of lethality and most air weapons fall within this category."

To me that would make a G10 a RIF as its power is generally below 1 joule (5.5gr BB @ 215-250fps)....So whilst I agree it isn't in practice painted a bright colour to comply with the VCR bill - It actually should within the letter of the law....

You're again quoting a GUIDE which is not THE LAW, thus meanwhile, back in the real, world it's NOT A RIF ;-)

[magicniner]

May I remind you of BASC's technical officer's recent FUBAR over semi-auto target pistols?
Anyone relying on a BASC legal guide that doesn't have the name of a decent lawyer attached should keep one eye over their shoulder

The lesson is that without looking at Firearms Law, the VCR Bill, Home Office Guidance and legal precedents you can quote documents untill you're blue in the face and then walk into a shop with an FEO and buy something you incorrectly concluded was illegal.

You'd be a chump to claim or believe that something currently on sale in a large proportion of UK airgun shops was illegal, even purely from the point of applied logic



- Nick

[RichardH]

Nick

I'm not certain you right, are you suggesting that if a pistol is sub 1 Joule with a lead pellet its an airgun rather than a RIF?

I have a big pile of 6mm lead balls here on your logic all 6mm toys now become airguns?

Similarly if i put plastic 4.5mm balls in an airgun does it revert to being a RIF?

Please explain?

Rich

[magicniner]

Nick

I'm not certain you right, are you suggesting that if a pistol is sub 1 Joule with a lead pellet its an airgun rather than a RIF?

I have a big pile of 6mm lead balls here on your logic all 6mm toys now become airguns?

Similarly if i put plastic 4.5mm balls in an airgun does it revert to being a RIF?

Please explain?

Rich

Rich,
My logic is that you have to look at the law, home office guidelines and the current application of the law.
Anything that can fire a .177 dart at a significantly dangerous velocity I would like to see argued as a RIF in court - it ain't gonna happen, it will be deemed to be an air pistol and this is why it's on sale as such in the shops without prosecutions
Stick a lead ball through any normal airsoft and regardless of power you'll have cycling problems and balls on your feet along with no significant capability to do harm
Stick a plastic ball through an Airgun and it's still an Airgun.
On the other hand if you run a 6mm gun with CO2 to give significant power increase the law is happy to see it sold as an air pistol.
You have to use common sense rather than trying to be clever with documents in an attempt to prove that black is white and generally disprove reality,
Regards,
Nick

[RichardH]

Rich,
My logic is that you have to look at the law, home office guidelines and the current application of the law.
Anything that can fire a .177 dart at a significantly dangerous velocity I would like to see argued as a RIF in court - it ain't gonna happen, it will be deemed to be an air pistol and this is why it's on sale as such in the shops without prosecutions
Stick a lead ball through any normal airsoft and regardless of power you'll have cycling problems and balls on your feet along with no significant capability to do harm
Stick a plastic ball through an Airgun and it's still an Airgun.
On the other hand if you run a 6mm gun with CO2 to give significant power increase the law is happy to see it sold as an air pistol.
You have to use common sense rather than trying to be clever with documents in an attempt to prove that black is white and generally disprove reality,
Regards,
Nick

Nick

As a clued up RFD can you explain how the following two pistols would be classified:

0.9 Joule 4.5mm pistol
0.9 Joule 6mm pistol

I would be interested to see how you arrive at your conclusions

Rich

[hwtyger]

CO2 bulk:
Aeron had 1, the B96?, Steyr LP5, Walther, FWB?
Best buy, best bet.
Also, Drulov has a semi auto, as did Hammerli 30yrs ago (master?)

You can probably make a Crosman 2240 multishot, not semi auto, but think thats bulb fed only.

[Geezer]

The AF10 is a rather lightweigh and almost feels a bit flimsy, in my opinion.

The PR15 is the 15-shot lead ball only repeater, and from what I've seen and handled (but never fired) is much more solid. Unlike the AF10, which can have pellets loaded directly into the breech, there is no such option on the PR15.

The PR45 is a single-shot only version of, essentially, the PR15 - it differs only, I'm sure, in having a different overlever/barrel assembly - with adjustable sights (PR15's are fixed) and lengthened to extend past the front of the frame. And, of course, direct access to the breech for loading.

Iain

You are of course right. Got my PRs confused.

[Bjacobs571]

I don't think that's the repeater variant of the Hi-Score. It had an overlever cocking mech using the whole barrel & cylinder assy. , and a peculiar rotating shutter breech that operated by twisting the big knurled ring. I had one of these pistols in the 60s, but never saw the multishot variant, which had a longer breech ring. It wasn't , IIRC, what it was cracked up to be - trigger was gruesome and creepy and the result was that it wasn't particularly accurate in the hands of anyone I knew. Its contemporary, the Slavia ZVP was a similar size but built like a miniature break-barrel rifle, with a crisp trigger and a MV which would probably take it perilously close to the limit - and I much preferred it.

Regards,
MikB

The first pistol on the page is the single shot version. The instructions are for the repeating version according to the poster. The picture about a third of the way down is the repeating version. If you compare it with the top picture you can see the knurled knob at the back is longer. I am not an expert on these pistols, I am only going on what the people on that forum are saying.
I also seem to remember another pistol very much like the Hi-Score but made in china I think. I remember people telling me they were very powerful for a pistol but I never shot one so I don't know.

[Bjacobs571]

I have just found this pistol it says its a .177 repeating pistol.

http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Air-Pistols...e-gs61056.aspx

another couple of pictures here near the bottom of the page

http://www.micksguns.com/air%20pistols.htm

another picture with its magazine
http://www.gunauction.com/search/dis...temnum=6413886

[harvey_s]

You're again quoting a GUIDE which is not THE LAW, thus meanwhile, back in the real, world it's NOT A RIF ;-)

I was quoting FOR SIMPLICITY a document endorsed by the Assoc. of Chief Police Officers as the correct interpretation of a complex piece of LAW...So again as an RFD please quote where it specifies IN LAW that the bore size or projectile define the classification of an RIF because I haven't seen it...?
In the real world it IS an RIF as far as I'm and the law is concerned, in practice it's one that has slipped through the multi-coloured net.

[magicniner]

Nick

As a clued up RFD can you explain how the following two pistols would be classified:

A- 0.9 Joule 4.5mm pistol
B- 0.9 Joule 6mm pistol

I would be interested to see how you arrive at your conclusions

Rich

A- Air Pistol, because there are no .177 pistols sold in the UK that require a legal defence to sell or have to be painted funny colours for sale to the general public.
B- Airsoft because if it chronos at this UKARA members will allow you to skirmish with it, I think they use a standard weight ball for testing so I'll assume your reading is taken with that weight

[jassi]

Nick

As a clued up RFD can you explain how the following two pistols would be classified:

0.9 Joule 4.5mm pistol
0.9 Joule 6mm pistol

I would be interested to see how you arrive at your conclusions

Rich

As someone is neither clued up, nor a RFD, I would say that it was a case of exclusion.
The latter pistol meets the criteria of airsoft, so unless modeled on a pre 1870 pistol is classed as a RIF, whereas the former doesn't, so isn't

Ian