Proposed New Scoring for MPL 2013.

[zooma]

Making the scoring system the same, i.e. standard upward scoring, makes a lot of sense, but we need to make sure that some of the match pistols don't become fly away winners.

I suppose one way would be to handicap guns/certain power sources, like +1 per card for a springer, -1 for PCP, etc.

Kind regards,



Phil

Just to re-cap:- As from 1st January 2013.

All MPL cards are scored UP in the normal way.

Kickers get a +4 point bonus per card.

There is no chance whatsoever of the match pistols running away with it - that's what the MPL is all about.

As for PCP pistols - check the MPL rules - they have always been banned and are stil banned.

MPL stands for Muscle Power League - all energy needed to propel any MPL pistol has to come from the human muscles - not a pre-charged cylinder of any sort.

All pistols used are either spring powered or SSP - both need Muscle Power to cock them - anything other then this is banned from the MPL.

[p.m.h]

Well spotted Bob I did, in fact, mean SSP, as I am aware PCPs are not allowed.

Bit harsh, however! just me typing faster than I pay attention.

Kind regards,



Phil

[I. J.]

Thanks everyone - lets go for it and make life a little easier for us all.

........except Ian who has to explain it all to the Rivvy shooters who will (in time honoured fashion) make life as difficult as possible for him!

I think it's just a sign of affection really.

'... make things as difficult as possible for him ....' I swear some of our members have gone to night school to brush up on this subject!

ATB
TC1

[zooma]

Well spotted Bob I did, in fact, mean SSP, as I am aware PCPs are not allowed.

Bit harsh, however! just me typing faster than I pay attention.

Kind regards,



Phil

Not a problem Phil,

There must be a few people that are reading all this MPL stuff that are wondering what it is all about sometimes, so the oportunity to briefly sumarise the MPL content is a good thing to do now and again.

The MPL was originaly conceived to encourage the use of Classic air pistols , partly for nostalgic reasons on my part, and for the pleasure of finding an excuse to get these old treasures out of the retirement cupboard and onto the range where they can be used and enjoyed again. One of the other big reasons for getting the MPL up and running was to encourage more interest in 10 meter air pistol shooting at a price more people can afford.

It is not only newcomers and those that are just starting and may not want to invest a lot of cash in a top PCP match pistol, but others that may have already invested a stack of cash in air rifle shooting that have been tempted and encouraged to "have a go" in a competition that is neither too demanding of their time or their pocket so they can have a go without adversly affecting their main interest.

To be honest the MPL has been a great success for both of the clubs that have had a go at it, and it has provided a lot of fun at a budget price, with the biggest winner being the sport itself.

[zooma]

'... make things as difficult as possible for him ....' I swear some of our members have gone to night school to brush up on this subject!

ATB
TC1

Pure affection!

[Nocity]

This is not my original thread as my first reply which should have been at 1 pm today some how has got lost amongst the network and hopefully will be retrieved (watch this space).

Anyway, as the RMTC official or unofficial scorer, I would like to put in my two penneth and give Bob a big thumbs up! It's difficult enough trying to sus out who are using kickers and who are not especially when the culprits do not let you know. Also as I score up in other leagues trying to remember to score down and/or score up can sometimes tax even my brain. So this is a big yes for me and would also like to point out that people with kickers get 4 points added on per card giving them a total if my maths is correct of plus 16 points onto their overall score. Come on lads surely that's enough!

So for me Bob you get my vote and it is a yes.

I thought that the cards had to be marked with the pistol used, seems like some of the Rossendale's cards should not have been scored. As for rule changes should you not consult a few Rivi members first! I for one think that 4 points per card, for a springer, is excessive.

[karandras]

I thought that the cards had to be marked with the pistol used, seems like some of the Rossendale's cards should not have been scored. As for rule changes should you not consult a few Rivi members first! I for one think that 4 points per card, for a springer, is excessive.

You do know at the moment it's possible to get 6 extra points per card with a springer? upwards scoring plus 1 point per card for a springer under 2012 rules.

[mrfixit]

You do know at the moment it's possible to get 6 extra points per card with a springer? upwards scoring plus 1 point per card for a springer under 2012 rules.

You said it yourself there though"it's possible"not a given,a lot of the cards I have scored at Rivi's have gained only 2/3 points

[p.m.h]

Perhaps a number of trials are in order.

Give some shooters, selected or chosen at random, a few cards each with various guns, and and see what the results are.

I know we have had a look at some downwards scoring cards, and and have seen what they would score upwards scoring, but have these same shooters shot a few rounds with a springer to see how much, if any, they are disadvantaged by?

I am sure such an exercise will show a way forward.

Kind regards,



Phil

[zooma]

Before we started the MPL we checked a series of cards from a number of shooters and found (surprisingly) that on average it was not unusual to touch or cut a line up to four times in every 5 shots - but this also varied quite a bit as you would expect.

We also wanted to try and encourage the use of "kickers" and realised the only way to do this would be to find a way to include a sort of handicap system so we could even up the scores a little between those that used recoiless pistols and those that used kickers.

The system we came up with does work well, but could be made simper, and that is all I am suggesting we do.

No actual rule changes are needed - but making the cards easier to score must be a benefit for all of us.

Right from the start we said we would check to see if the handicap systen we had come up with would need any tweaks ( either way) in case it was seen to be too generous or not generous enough to give an even balance between the two types, but this would not be done until the end of the first season that will end in December this year - so now is a good time to discuss it.

The revised scoring system will not start until Round One of the first 6 month 2013 season in January, and will last until the end of June when we can look at it again before the start of the second 6 month season that will start in July and end in December as this first season has done.

My proposal ( and it is only a proposal - as stated) is to make things easier for scoring and I am suggesting that the bonus points for the kickers should be +4 points per card as that should give us a very similar situation to what we have now.

Changing the scoring system so every card can be scored in the same way should not be a problem to anyone - it makes it easier for us all - so I think the ONLY point of serious debate or concern should be the size of the bonus points we add to the kickers score, bearing in mind they are more difficult to shoot consistantly and we are only trying to give an eqaul oportunity for both types of pistol - not an easy task - and most definately NOT a science !

The proposed +4 points should keep everything just about where it is now.

If you think +4 points is too much ( or too little) then let me know. I am hoping we don't just get all those with kickers saying it is not enough, and all those with recoiless saying it is too much!.......if this happens then I will have to make the judgement that you cancel each other out and so what we have suggested is about right!

Just to let you know where I stand on this, I shoot both types (and will continue to do so), but I think right now we may have tipped the scales slightly in favour of the kickers, and if everyone else thinks that is the case then maybe the bonus points per card could be revised downwards to +3 points per card - but certainly no lower than that.

At the end of June we can look again to see how sucessful our guesswork has been and make another small tweak if we think we have made a mistake.

[zooma]

I thought that the cards had to be marked with the pistol used, seems like some of the Rossendale's cards should not have been scored. As for rule changes should you not consult a few Rivi members first! I for one think that 4 points per card, for a springer, is excessive.

Hi John,

This is only a proposal and I am consulting you all (in good time) and actually think you may be right about the +4 points ( please read my previous comments) - but other's may not agree with us.

I hope you do agree that changing the scoring so all cards are scored in the same way ( UP as per normal pistol scoring) is a good thing that will make things a lot easier for us all.

My guess is that it is only the size of the kicker bonus that may need looking at.

I have proposed +4, to keep everything about where it is now, but have suggested that +3 might just even things up a bit better.



..nice try about the RMTC scores by the way - but all the cards are recorded with the pistol used and this information ( like the Rivvy info) is displayed for all to see in the results sheet as well.

[zooma]

Hi Bob

As an independant interested person I think your scoring system is spot on, now simpler, and correctly reflects the balance between the recoiling and recoilless results.

The thing your guys are missing is that a good shot perfectly executed with a recoilless pistol is still a 10.9, the recoiless system does not throw the shot at random. But a bad shot is punished more with a recoiller, what would be a 9 or 8 is helped in the fault direction by the recoil and the same fault result can be any thing from a 7 or much worse.

The last time I shot both, an LP2 compact and a Walther LP53 (now that's a serious kicker!) my 10 mt average at that time was 92 with the LP2, shooting the LP 53 after a bit of practice to get used to the 1380 gm trigger I found that the results of good shots were still 9's and 10's. But shots I would have called worse with the LP2 such as 8's or 7's were 6's or even 5's and the occasional 4 with the 53, so you can loose the handicap on one shot, but shoot well and a score including handicap of 50 or more is easily possible.

So shooting well with the LP 53 I would expect the score to be little different, but as we rarely shoot 49's or 50's with top class PCP's (even the top people don't!) even a lot of good cards have 8's and the occasional 7, and I score cards from national team shooters so I see a representative sample.

So to be totaly fair the recoil/recoilless handicap would have to be different depending on the shooters standard as the 16 points a round with a good shooter would be too much, but that is totaly impracticle, and lets face it a top class shooter is unlikly to enter or if they do then shoot it with an LP 53!

I think your suggested system of standard scoring plus 4 a card is very close to being perfect.


.. .. .. .. .. ....


I have been given permission to quote this email (anonymously) by the sender who is a very experienced and high standard air pistol shooter with some considerbale experience to share with us, and he is also someone who likes to be aware of all that goes on in the air pistol world, but is not a contributor to this forum.........so my thanks go to the sender for these well reasoned observations - your thoughts are very helpful and much appreciated.

[karandras]

I have an idea and if no one else wants to do it, i'd be happy to do it myself.

Take every card shot with a kicker from every shooter in every round so far and note what the scores would have been under the the new proposed rules and how many bonus points each card has recieved.

Take an average of the number of bonus points recieved and see how that fits in with the new proposed rules.

We should also take all the cards from the SSP / recoilless pistols and see what thier scores would be under the new rules.

This would then give us pretty concrete evidence as to what the kicker bonus should be and how the scores would be effected if we used the new proposed rules.

What do you guys think?

Andi

[mrfixit]

I think the whole exercise has been a success beyond anyone's wildest dreams,and Bob should be congratulated for driving his idea forward.
Regarding the scoring,yes scoring in one direction has to be the way forward and personally I don't think +4 is that far off the mark if at all,sure we have a few shots that are shooting remarkably well with kickers but we don't want to penalise them and drive them away from those guns.The vast majority of kicker shooters the 4 points will be needed to make them competitive anyway.
After all as has been said on this thread it can all go horribly wrong very quickly with a kicker.
My vote goes to Bobs new proposal.
Steve
Plus TC1 can't shoot a kicker for love nor money.LOL

[zooma]

Hi Kandras - You are welcome to do this if you would like to do so.......but it will only record historical information, and we can see strong progress from the kickers recently which will make an element of your research a bit dated as the kickers never started anything like as well as they are going now.

With or without your historical analysis I think we still need to look forward with the benefit of what we can see happening now.

At the moment +4 points per card ( +16 points per round) may seem a but high - mainly due to the progress the kicker shooters have made very recently - but if we want to keep things as they are now the +4 bonus should do this.

If we look at the last two rounds scores, maybe +3 would be a better guess ( +12 points per round) - but we don't want to discourage the kickers in any way so maybe one change at a time is enough so I suggest that we stick with the proposal and take a look at it again in June and see how good our guesswork has been.

My guess is that we won't see much in the way of change - and there not too much wrong with that!