Old School Venom lazaglide Vs Modern V-mach Weihrauchs...

[brucegill]

Have to say I shot an old dog of a 77 last night. it was .22 and my much newer glided 97 is .177 but boy, what a difference. the old one was meant to have been tuned many moons ago but no buttoning on the cylinder for sure. it was so smooth and soft. the new 97, although VERY accurate, is very sharp/harsh and fast. I didn't have long with the old 77 so no accuracy tests, and it was in .22 but it opened my eyes a little.

I'm on the look out for a nice old full length 77 in .177 now lol

Can it really just be years of use? were they tuned a little better back in the day, with more time spent on each individual rifle? is it the newer trend for short stiff springs?

My newer v-glided 97 is great to shoot but I have to say I much preferred the shot cycle of the ol' 77

[MattyBoy]

I think it's fair to say that there are threads on here which have pretty well established the transfer port dimensions, the bore and the stroke for the ultimate 11.2 ft lb springer.

If the new V-Mach tunes have the correct stroke length and transfer port size then they will be amazing.

If the stroke is too long then they may not be as amazing as they could be.

Don't ask me for the actual figures as I don't have them to hand

Matty

[bigtoe01]

I have had the pleasuring of shooting 2 older Venom guns just recently. Both are sleeved barrel 77's that started off at .22's and finished after conversion as .177's. One is a sporter and the other a field target gun.

Now the sporter has a aluminium piston, full buttoned, 84mm stroke and is an utter bitch to cock...who ever buys this will have a rifle with a wonderfully fast locktime and a left arm with tennis elbow. As a piece of engineering its wonderful, the engraving on the gun is superb...would I shoot it...not on your life.

Now the second is a field target conversion, has no engraving, comes in a FT stock and again has a sleeved .22 barrel. This one had been abused by someone looking for power, it had 3 tophats smashed into each other in the piston and the spring had 2ft of preload added. When it was stripped just 1 tophat was serviceable so was retained, it shot at 10fpe with just the spring guide for preload but was still a little stiff. The owner asked if I had any other springs to hand so I offered one of the custom wound ones I have to test...the result is a gun that spits out exacts at 10.6fpe and will put a pellet thru a 5mm hole at 50 yards, it can be cocked with one finger.

Now the plane jane FT rifle is not as pretty as the sporter, the engineering is not as involved as it had just a steel piston, but it shot way way better and I could have had the gun just last night for 600quid.

The question though was do they shoot better than the guns I tune for myself...


Nope they don't...so i kept the 600quid in my pocket.

The sporter is sold, i think i know who to also...its nice, but you better get weight lifting and build up those muscles

[Baxterbasics]

I have had the pleasuring of shooting 2 older Venom guns just recently. Both are sleeved barrel 77's that started off at .22's and finished after conversion as .177's. One is a sporter and the other a field target gun.

Now the sporter has a aluminium piston, full buttoned, 84mm stroke and is an utter bitch to cock...who ever buys this will have a rifle with a wonderfully fast locktime and a left arm with tennis elbow. As a piece of engineering its wonderful, the engraving on the gun is superb...would I shoot it...not on your life.

Now the second is a field target conversion, has no engraving, comes in a FT stock and again has a sleeved .22 barrel. This one had been abused by someone looking for power, it had 3 tophats smashed into each other in the piston and the spring had 2ft of preload added. When it was stripped just 1 tophat was serviceable so was retained, it shot at 10fpe with just the spring guide for preload but was still a little stiff. The owner asked if I had any other springs to hand so I offered one of the custom wound ones I have to test...the result is a gun that spits out exacts at 10.6fpe and will put a pellet thru a 5mm hole at 50 yards, it can be cocked with one finger.

Now the plane jane FT rifle is not as pretty as the sporter, the engineering is not as involved as it had just a steel piston, but it shot way way better and I could have had the gun just last night for 600quid.

The question though was do they shoot better than the guns I tune for myself...


Nope they don't...so i kept the 600quid in my pocket.

The sporter is sold, i think i know who to also...its nice, but you better get weight lifting and build up those muscles

Interesting, very interesting Tony

[bigtoe01]

Interesting, very interesting Tony

I thought you might say that

[Shed tuner]

Interesting, very interesting Tony

It is interesting, kinda supports the light piston / high preload = low hold sensitivity and snappy (gasram like), as opposed to heavier weight piston / lower preload = softer but potentially more hold sensitive.

Personally I prefer to err toward the snappier side, say about 2" of preload on a moderate spring. I don't like v. low preload guns, they need heavier pistons and feel slow. Then again I like gasrams too

[bigtoe01]

It is interesting, kinda supports the light piston / high preload = low hold sensitivity and snappy (gasram like), as opposed to heavier weight piston / lower preload = softer but potentially more hold sensitive.

Personally I prefer to err toward the snappier side, say about 2" of preload on a moderate spring. I don't like v. low preload guns, they need heavier pistons and feel slow. Then again I like gasrams too

The only issue is you end up with a 10.5fpe rifle that is almost uncockable...it had a nice shot cycle however...but you have to cock it first.

[Shed tuner]

The only issue is you end up with a 10.5fpe rifle that is almost uncockable...it had a nice shot cycle however...but you have to cock it first.

Agree completely, so obviously we have to compromise somewhat... the 2" of preload with 3mm gauge springs in my TXs is a good compromise IMHO.

Pity you are a gazillion miles away, we could compare shot cycles

[LeeO]

Could it be the starting ingredient's,?
I've read a few time's on here the older the better with HW's,?
I'm sure there's more than one engineer or tradesman on here who'd agree base material's dont seem as good as even ten years ago,let alone twenty,

[jumbuck]

My mate had a Venom HW80, can't remember what Venom called it but By eck was that smoooooooooooooooth and pretty My HW80 seemed like a plain Jane bucking bronco next to the Venom. I bugged my mate for years about buying it off him after he gave up shooting but wouldn't sell it to me
Some years later we were talking about the good ole days and i asked if he still had it but someone had waved a wedge of green stuff and he took the money and sold it

The HW80 i have now is tuned by Dave Hall

[Baxterbasics]

I have never shot a Dave Hall tuned rifle or a fully tuned SFS hw77/97-so I cannot comment with any authority.
I spent a couple of hours with a member off here this morning, comparing various hw80's 77's and a 97k.
We both agreed that there is very little to choose between the Lazaglided 77k and the V-Mached 97k-both a delight to shoot.
Keith had a 1980's fully Lazaglided HW80 in .22 which was superb-on the chrono it was only varying by 2-3 fps with Exacts from the tin

[TonyL]

This is a real toughie.

I have a selection of HWs, all tuned by Dave, Ivan and Steve (remember, Steve worked alongside pops for a fair few years). They're all superb. The sweetest of the bunch has to be my Lazaglided Bullpup 80, which you'd expect, as my Vantage 77 just has a "standard" tune, but there ain't much in it.

Can anyone now remember / did anyone know how much was actually done when Venom breathed their magic on spring guns? Were the cylinders honed? -Probably not required on 77s, but of greater value on un sleeved springers. We're transfer ports re-profiled/opened up/smoothed?
All my Venoms are lovely. I've not actually used some of them for years as most of my shooting recently has been at very close range at home, and they're too special for that. I seem to remember that my .22 80, although smooth, did feel very lazy, but then you'd expect that with increased efficiency but running standard stroke and bore.....amazingly accurate, though, very forgiving and this gun has accounted for more bunnies than all my others.

I hope to bring the Bullpup to the springer gathering.....we got there, Graham!!!!

The old Mark 1 77 that I got for free a few years ago shoots very sweetly also. Just dropped a V-Mach kit in and it's beautiful. One of the guys at the club I used to go to really had a thing against springers...until he shot this one!!

Sorry chaps, gotta sit on the fence on this one...can't split the older/newer ones.

I can imagine, however, that a rifle personally breathed on by Steve Pope, with all those extra years of accumulated knowledge and expertise, really must be something very, very special. From references on here, the waiting list will be very, very long and it won't be cheap, but then since when has acquiring the best ever been cheap?? And remember, I bet he's often got Mr Pope senior advising, helping and prodding.

I really miss my many visits to the Cradley Heath premises and still remember the smell........

Best days of my life........

[keithomas]

My slant on old venom vs new vmach is theirs no definate line. Fifty /50
Oh the venoms slower
Oh the vmach is snappier
Both are true... when you try it you will know.

If your lucky enough to own or have shot one of the above you know their special. Their not the average. Before today id have said yer fulla shi te if ya know the diffrence. But now their is a diffrence. With out rambeling and sounding like a twat...Their both diffrent but so good!!!

Ive just bought a hw77 .77 on the back of what i sampled earlier.