Interesting findings of Walther LP53 and Lucznik

[clarky]

Why is that surprising?... Your own tests showed it was more accurate, had lower felt recoil and probably was less stressful on the gun as well.
450 FPS is more than adequate for a target pistol and the 33 FPS lost will not be noticeable at all, but the other effects were.
Power is not everything and sometimes less is more

Interesting results though and thanks for sharing them

BTW what differences were there, if any, on cocking effort?

Cocking effort is perhaps slightly increased. Final thock at end of stroke marginally increased with the Delrin Top hat versus stock set up but spring twang and vibration through grip totally eliminated.
Having learnt to use a tight grip with the 53.....quite unlike other springers, incl. rifles, one is better able to control the accuracy and slight extra increase of the top hat in steel (extra weight and power) made little or no difference to me personally.
I may offer a Delrin Top hat for anyone who is interested that has purchased the kit.
I will extensively test further to find out just how much accuracy improvement can be had by swapping out the weighted top hat but in complete honesty im feeling little difference.
Ill post again after anothers days testing.

[clarky]

Cocking effort is perhaps slightly increased. Final thock at end of stroke marginally increased with the Delrin Top hat versus stock set up but spring twang and vibration through grip totally eliminated.
Having learnt to use a tight grip with the 53.....quite unlike other springers, incl. rifles, one is better able to control the accuracy and slight extra increase of the top hat in steel (extra weight and power) made little or no difference to me personally.
I may offer a Delrin Top hat for anyone who is interested that has purchased the kit.
I will extensively test further to find out just how much accuracy improvement can be had by swapping out the weighted top hat but in complete honesty im feeling little difference.
Ill post again after anothers days testing.

Ok the results of 2 more evenings testing.
I realise this is of little interest to many... and with such small internals, the margins of gains/losses quite probably too small for most to get excited about but ill add it anyway for future 53 enthusiasts.

Dropped in an identical top hat in black delrin and put in a half hr session of shooting at 10 metres.
There is a definate reduced noise or thock. Its difficult to be certain if this is just from reduced inertia or the lack of metal contact on the piston face behind the piston head.
Pellets hit 7mm lower on target.....a judgement made by averaging from 5 cards.
Width ctr to ctr of groups is almost identical but vertical stringing approx 4mm reduced in spread across the 5 cards but almost neglible when just comparing card against card.....u need to produce a bunch of cards to spot the small differences with pistols, rather than just saying nah no difference and binning the excersice.
Velocity figues ...R10.....448 fps, 452 fps, 451 fps, 448 fps, 446 fps
Thats very consistant and with the leather washer remarkably similar to the shots in my cold garage to here in the 22 degrees of the club.

I think ill end the testing here but think i have a achieved a good record of conclusions from stock or modified parts for future reference for the enthusiast.

[Gerard]

Thank you so much for this information Clarky. I bought a rather battered 1954 LP53 last week, and was a bit disappointed with both the low velocity and the difficulty in shooting something like a group. It's certainly a jumpy pistol with the original springs - actually likely to have been replaced sometime in recent years, as they're both straight and show almost no wear. I thoroughly cleaned the pistol, lubed and assembled, and there was zero improvement in velocity - averaging 385fps with H&N Finale Match 7.56gr - and only a small reduction in firing harshness. So it was a relief to come across this thread!

Today I used part of a spring from an Industry Brand QB57 to try and replicate your findings. It was one I had already cut down to test in an IZH MP-61, but in that rifle it was too harsh, made accurate shooting impossible. I chopped the very open-wound spring down to just 16 turns in the end such that it fits loosely into the LP53, rattling a bit when assembled. Then I fitted a small stack of washers into the piston, 5.5mm deep and weighing 9 grams. The spring's OD was about 0.4mm larger than the original Walther spring so I mounted it on an aluminum rod and spun it against a sander, reducing by 0.3mm, then polishing on sandpapers and finally buffing until it matched the original spring and no longer made awful noises against the sear while cocking. Also made a delrin spring guide which is an easy fit into the spring as it is onto the original steel guide rod. All this resulted in a jump to about 425fps with the same pellets.

So I made a steel mushroom-shaped plug to fill about 1cm of the end of the new spring, drilling a hole in the far end to allow it to go over the pin in the piston head. Had to cut down the guide rods by about 1cm to allow cocking with this one in place - so this further weighting would not be likely with anyone wanting to keep the original features of the pistol intact. Mine's a beater, with lots of wear, a nastily messed up end cap thanks to idiots with pliers in decades past, and a hairline crack about 1/2 the way around the cast aluminum barrel shroud probably owing to someone using the thing as a hammer. The head of this filler of steel is about 5mm deep, similar to the washers I'd tried, but total added weight in the piston is 16 grams. Velocity went up to an average of 468fps with the 7.56gr pellets. No other pellet I have on hand goes as fast, with 7gr RWS pellets only doing about 448 to 455fps. Spread for ten shots with the heavier and slightly tighter fitting H&N went between 461fps and 475fps.

The result is a slightly quieter pistol, delivering 1.18fpe more power than it had when it came to me, and finally letting me group my pellets a bit more closely. It'll take practice with my grip to establish more horizontal control but the vertical has tightened up nicely with these changes. Cocking effort with this spring, which has about 1mm of preload when the cap touches the thread so perhaps 7mm preload when the cap is tightened, is about 3lbs more than stock. Still not too difficult. I don't need any sort of cocking aid with the pistol.

[clarky]

Thank you so much for this information Clarky. I bought a rather battered 1954 LP53 last week, and was a bit disappointed with both the low velocity and the difficulty in shooting something like a group. It's certainly a jumpy pistol with the original springs - actually likely to have been replaced sometime in recent years, as they're both straight and show almost no wear. I thoroughly cleaned the pistol, lubed and assembled, and there was zero improvement in velocity - averaging 385fps with H&N Finale Match 7.56gr - and only a small reduction in firing harshness. So it was a relief to come across this thread!

Today I used part of a spring from an Industry Brand QB57 to try and replicate your findings. It was one I had already cut down to test in an IZH MP-61, but in that rifle it was too harsh, made accurate shooting impossible. I chopped the very open-wound spring down to just 16 turns in the end such that it fits loosely into the LP53, rattling a bit when assembled. Then I fitted a small stack of washers into the piston, 5.5mm deep and weighing 9 grams. The spring's OD was about 0.4mm larger than the original Walther spring so I mounted it on an aluminum rod and spun it against a sander, reducing by 0.3mm, then polishing on sandpapers and finally buffing until it matched the original spring and no longer made awful noises against the sear while cocking. Also made a delrin spring guide which is an easy fit into the spring as it is onto the original steel guide rod. All this resulted in a jump to about 425fps with the same pellets.

So I made a steel mushroom-shaped plug to fill about 1cm of the end of the new spring, drilling a hole in the far end to allow it to go over the pin in the piston head. Had to cut down the guide rods by about 1cm to allow cocking with this one in place - so this further weighting would not be likely with anyone wanting to keep the original features of the pistol intact. Mine's a beater, with lots of wear, a nastily messed up end cap thanks to idiots with pliers in decades past, and a hairline crack about 1/2 the way around the cast aluminum barrel shroud probably owing to someone using the thing as a hammer. The head of this filler of steel is about 5mm deep, similar to the washers I'd tried, but total added weight in the piston is 16 grams. Velocity went up to an average of 468fps with the 7.56gr pellets. No other pellet I have on hand goes as fast, with 7gr RWS pellets only doing about 448 to 455fps. Spread for ten shots with the heavier and slightly tighter fitting H&N went between 461fps and 475fps.

The result is a slightly quieter pistol, delivering 1.18fpe more power than it had when it came to me, and finally letting me group my pellets a bit more closely. It'll take practice with my grip to establish more horizontal control but the vertical has tightened up nicely with these changes. Cocking effort with this spring, which has about 1mm of preload when the cap touches the thread so perhaps 7mm preload when the cap is tightened, is about 3lbs more than stock. Still not too difficult. I don't need any sort of cocking aid with the pistol.

Thats a wonderful effort. Its not suprizing that the looks and firearm build quality of this pistol seem to encourage people to want to improve it like no other. Its nice to hear of someone else trying to restore and appreciate the well made things in life.
My masses of meddling experience with this gun recommends you to select sub 4.52 pellets..RWS R10 do this nicely at 4.49 and 4.50 across a broad sampling.
Try a very tight isocolese hold and you will realise the groups i achieve.
CHeck that breach seal too and leave your gun barrel broken when stored to preserve it.
You require an 8mm nitrile ring available from Knibbs for 3 quid.
I will send u a pic of my beautiful K version barrel chopped to the true bore and the foresight resoldered.
You can use BIrchwood Aluminium Black to perfectly restore any finish issues.....
Your hairline crack can be filled with Araldite 2031which is an epoxy but of black finish which perfectly matches the Birchwood finish i described.
Clean out all the moly.....its disasterous stuff esp with aluminium. The silicone content in it galls terrible.
Try Techniks LT2 paste especially on the front wall/ cocking slot where all the pressure is imparted.
Take a look at your piston washer. Bisley gun oil or vegetable oil a good restorer and keep it lightly oiled after a 24 hr soak.

I could probably get more out of one but ive decided to stand down now.
Its teasing me but im resisting. Im talking about the Powerpod piston weight. It has a hole through it unfortunately but required to accomodate the original spring guide that is fitted to the grip cap when the gun is cocked or it will not cock.
Thus slightly chopping this guide by 5mm or so would allow a solid weight and probably a 500 fps velocity.
However, i think i may now be at the limit of the machine. There is only so much one can get within the physical size constraints and i think we are about there already.
Thus leaving stock guide well alone .

[Gerard]

As I said, considering the rough condition of much of my LP53, 'proper' restoration isn't really a priority for me. I've been rather more cautious with interventions on my 1950's Webleys as they're in much closer to original condition. But with this Walther I'm not worried, it's actually been dropped a number of times, resulting in that barrel shroud crack (actually that one probably came from it being used as a hammer, as there's a deep dent along one edge of the spring cap showing it was smeared against another piece of steel, with force) and broken-off front and rear sights. I've made a new front post and adapted part of a rear sight to what was left of that, then painted the barrel shroud (which was worn down to bare zinc-aluminum casting with little black left) with an epoxy appliance paint, then baked it. The result looks a lot better than it did, but still, this will never be a collector piece.

I happen to have a few dozen 2mm x 6mm O-rings, purchased as spares for my Brocock Atomic. The breech had two O-rings as it came to me, one about 1mm x 8mm, the other seemingly 1.5mm x 6mm, somehow both squashed in and gradually flattened through improper storage - I always store my Webleys breech-open for just this reason and my home made seals last a very long time, then I can make new leather and brass tube seals if ever needed. It turned out the 2x6mm rings fit perfectly. They leave a slight gap around the outside, but the inner seal is the important one and that's perfect, as a tissue lain across the breech when firing does not puff up in the slightest. 'Leonardj', an airgun repairman here in Canada, tells me that it just so happens that 2mm x 6mm is the correct ring, so my experience and his information coincide and it's all good.

Not sure I'd want to shorten the shroud, but I'd like to see that result. What have you used to solder to the aluminum? Seems the rods for low temperature alloys from muggyweld.com would do the job, is that the sort of thing you've used? I'd like to file out then solder along the crack in my pistol's shroud just to have it un-cracked, though it seems not to be a structural problem. But I'm unsure about welding with such a finicky alloy. Comfortable enough brazing with steel, even the odd bit of stainless, but casting alloys tend to turn into a puddle if one isn't careful.

The H&N pellets I have deliver the highest energy so no need to switch I think. They're 4.49mm, which works very well in my Pardini K12 pistol, so I have a fair number on hand, and they're quite a bit lower cost than R10 here.

This is how mine has turned out. I decided last evening to glue on a ring of aluminum around the horribly disfigured end cap. It stiffens the rather soft steel. Might knock that off some day and turn down the ruined knurling and braze on a steel ring, but then again that's a lot of fuss and this aluminum tube section seems to be working nicely. Easy enough to hand tighten, and I've put a large O-ring under it to prevent the bottom plate from rattling a little.

Oh, regarding the two-handed grip and stance... yes, I've tried that, but it seems to go against the grain for me. I'm used to the old-fashioned one-handed planar stance. From 10m AP competition. Shooting two-handed and with my chest facing a target just feels wrong, and the efforts I've made so far using that sort of shooting don't improve groupings at all, just because I'm bad at it. I'll keep working on a firm one-handed grip and see where it gets me.

http://www.luthier.ca/other/forum/LP...3_finished.jpg

[clarky]

Sounds like a challenge your pistol .....let me help.
Can you put your barrel up between centres on a lathe. After filling the crack and polishing down with 600 grade wet and dry paper.
You could then go with the Birchwood finish and get a very close match to the original.
For a rear sight the Weihrauch 35 rifle has a perfect match rearsight which is virtually identical and has the same hole centres. No machining at all ....just screws on. Available in the bucket load from Sandwell shooting supplies for a few quid.
The foresight was epoxied on by Leonard when he did his fabulous K version. I tested the Araldite varieties i have available to me at work and suprised by the results.
After 4 hrs often recommended ......Aluminium bars i tested on just pulled apart for fun.
At 24 hrs tougher going but still not good enough.
These tests on Utube and similar getting it wrong. After a week i couldnt separate the bars with a hammer.
Epoxy needs time therefore........but it took me until after the completion of my project to accidently find this out after binning the idea on my earlier tests.
I just lifted a section out of the scrap bin a week later after the completion of my work and tested it out of interest and wished i had used the glue and been more patient.
No....i simply soft soldered....the alloy easily stands the 180 degrees for soft solder to flow with the aid of a drop of liquid flux applied to the base of the sight....actually used a very big Jointers iron with a tip the size of a chisel to get the localized heat there without having to resort to a flame....i watched the solder start to flow slowly wicking under the hairline gap between the sight and barrel.....did it both sides until a lenght of std 1mm core had lost about 15 mm of its lenght.
I tested once cured and seems way strong enough.

Your grip cap.....ive seen somewhere. An American spares site has them.
Ill get back to you.

[Gerard]

Well no need for the lathe I think, as there's nothing wrong with the barrel or shroud except for that hairline crack just where the web of casting meets it, coming up from the hinge pin. It's not moving at all in use, seems strictly cosmetic and to have resulted from some sort of impact rather than normal use. If I do get around to soldering it I'll probably modify that web of cast material just a bit so as to provide slightly less of a stress riser, tapering it more rather than the sudden angle the manufacturer left. Hand finishing down to level after filing it out and aluminum brazing isn't a problem, no need for the lathe there. I've got a friend who is expert in many types of welding, who may have the correct alloy and flux in hand (saving me the $50 or so for the kit), but as I said, perhaps won't bother as it isn't presenting any structural issue. The front sight problem was just the brittle aluminum post broken off. I made a steel one with a ring to go around the fixing bolt and problem solved.

[harvey_s]

The 24hr epoxies are much stronger than the rapid curing versions... I can remember an anecdote from Campagnolo Wheels who were supplying Bimota at the time with pressed aluminium wheels which were two halves stuck and also riveted together.
They said that the rivets actually weakened their structure, but they were added purely because the public could not accept that wheels that were just 'glued' together would be strong enough.

Modern engineering epoxy and acrylic adhesives used with the correct prep are serious materials in their own right rather than the bodging gunge our parents used

[clarky]

The 24hr epoxies are much stronger than the rapid curing versions... I can remember an anecdote from Campagnolo Wheels who were supplying Bimota at the time with pressed aluminium wheels which were two halves stuck and also riveted together.
They said that the rivets actually weakened their structure, but they were added purely because the public could not accept that wheels that were just 'glued' together would be strong enough.

Modern engineering epoxy and acrylic adhesives used with the correct prep are serious materials in their own right rather than the bodging gunge our parents used

Yes you are right. The stuff i used was Black cure Araldite 2031 a professional bond epoxy for the aircraft industry available from RS....it would have been much easier to go with it.
Its not so much the method but the darned clean up.....i was v lucky to have all my solder flow in under the sight and then just whipped around with a smear of the 2031 glue to fill the hairline gap....no clean up and no painting.
Foresight inserts are available from Protek but i think only the tapered variety left.

[tacfoley]

Just like to say that this has been a totally great thread with lots of advice and shared knowledge. I have two LP53s - both mint and boxed with all accessories except the barrel weights. I have one of each brown and black grip versions and they both still shoot very well. I bought my very first LP53 back in the early 60's on a birthday shopping trip to the Army and Navy Stores in London, but like many things, it disappeared as I moved around. Apart from the scrawny-looking backsight, it still has the air of being a 'real' gun' - just as Walther intended.

tac

PS - if anybody here collects serial numbers, I can let you know by PM. I also have my raffle-prize Walther LG55 target rifle, too, but sadly the seal went just before Christmas, leaving me three shots short of winning a local competition.

[clarky]

Just like to say that this has been a totally great thread with lots of advice and shared knowledge. I have two LP53s - both mint and boxed with all accessories except the barrel weights. I have one of each brown and black grip versions and they both still shoot very well. I bought my very first LP53 back in the early 60's on a birthday shopping trip to the Army and Navy Stores in London, but like many things, it disappeared as I moved around. Apart from the scrawny-looking backsight, it still has the air of being a 'real' gun' - just as Walther intended.

tac

PS - if anybody here collects serial numbers, I can let you know by PM. I also have my raffle-prize Walther LG55 target rifle, too, but sadly the seal went just before Christmas, leaving me three shots short of winning a local competition.

Good for you, despite some groans i actually like the rear sight. Ideally it should have had something like the Walther Olympic full bore weapon did, dovetailed in or screwed onto the Beaver tail receiver .....(already been there and done that many years back) but ive grown to like the one fitted.
Try comparing it against many available on most air rifles and pistols and you will start to appreciate it more.
At least its range of movement can cover all the extremes to shoot exactl to the point of aim with no aim off....i can think of loads that dont, incl. most Co2 stuff.

[clarky]

Having access to my Myford and Delrin bar stock is proving quite annoying. I just cant leave be especially at this time of year when spending more time indoors.
Had to try this to catch the other end of parameter.
Whipped out the Top hat altogether and turned up a much longer over guide guide rod.
The thinking here is that the piston serves to keep the top end of the spring straight but to get maximum guiding all along the length left after the piston has moved forward.
In otherwords maximum guiding no top hat.
I got total ....and i do mean total vibration free shooting and the least jolt at the end of stroke.
It resulted in marginally the tightest group sizes ive ever had from the gun but relying on just the little piston for weight, i got 438 fps avg.
Some might go for that .....its an option ill offer to people if they want one.

[clarky]

Having access to my Myford and Delrin bar stock is proving quite annoying. I just cant leave be especially at this time of year when spending more time indoors.
Had to try this to catch the other end of parameter.
Whipped out the Top hat altogether and turned up a much longer over guide guide rod.
The thinking here is that the piston serves to keep the top end of the spring straight but to get maximum guiding all along the length left after the piston has moved forward.
In otherwords maximum guiding no top hat.
I got total ....and i do mean total vibration free shooting and the least jolt at the end of stroke.
It resulted in marginally the tightest group sizes ive ever had from the gun but relying on just the little piston for weight, i got 438 fps avg.
Some might go for that .....its an option ill offer to people if they want one.

My final set up arrived at after a week of testing and swapping is the Powerpod spring....a top hat piston weight which is almost identical to the powerpod kit but with 0.75mm thicker seating flange.
Achieving max weight and compression but still allowing a tiny over shoot required for sear engagement.
But very recommended is the swap out of the Nylon cover guide rod.
I fitted a high precision stainless steel guide rod with a nice slip fit over the existing guide and inside the mainspring.
Slightly greased.....487 fps .....492 fps .....496 fps ....489fps..
I think thats 500 fps achieved.
Group sizes 1/2 inch at 8 yds

[clarky]

For future reference as a useful resourse for 53 tinkerers, the piston weight needs to be 17 grams.
Give or take a gram.
I would explain how i arrived at this figure for anyone interested.

[Gerard]

Surely this weight is for a given spring wire gauge, OD, and coil rate, and would shift up or down for even slight variations in the resulting spring strength, no? A stronger spring will push a heavier piston just as fast, where a weaker spring would need a lighter piston to achieve the same piston velocity and resultant pellet velocity. I think.