Steyr LP10 or FWB P44

[zooma]

Hi Eric,

I would still suggest that if you have decided to go for a PCP next time then you try to shoot them all and see what type you personally like the best and take no notice of any recommendations that are based on what somebody else may happen to like or currently own.

........ask a Ford man and he will always say buy a Ford......

Every top PCP pistol can give you superb accuracy, but none of them will work for you if you don't like the feel or the fit of them so take your time and have a go with them all and make your own mind up.

Also, take no notice of the 10 year old date stamp on the cylinder nonsense ( other than to be aware of the age as it may affect the price you pay) as this subject has been "done to death" here on the BBS and unless you intend shooting in an ISSF competition this is something that should not concern you or the vast majority of us that likes to shoot target air pistol.

The odd handful of international standard people that this may concern are the only ones that need to worry about a date stamp on their air cylinders - and if they are that good they could probably borrow an "in date" cylinder if it came to it (supposing they weren't already sponsored in some way).

Some manufacturers (eg Morini) don't even date stamp their cylinders unless they are sold in a country (eg Germany) that has a local law that requires it and so common sense is to check the condition of the cylinder (whatever the age) especially it if has been re-filled by a pump rather than an air cylinder as this can cause condensation and contamination - and this is more serious that having a nice date stamp.

It is worth reading this BBS thread about air cylinder date stamps to put your mind at rest on this subject, and there is no point repeating it all over again here when it is such a good and well detailed thread.

Match air pistols are worth whatever the buyer is happy to pay for them, and this is determined by the price they regularly sell for so you can see this for yourself and make your own judgement.

Finally - take no notice of those that rubbish any type when they do not own or use one themselves. A good example is the Feinwerkbau P34 - a pistol that is owned and used successfully by many target shooters right up to and including national level.

Just incase you are wondering I can tell you that I did own a P34 and I was very impressed with it - and NO - I do not have one to sell, so I have no motive for saying this other than to try and be helpful and suggest you make your own mind up on what you see and what you like.

[Fierynick]

As most of the above was aimed at me I'll retort..... The 10 year rule is being upheld at all major matches. Whilst it is ridiculous that is the case.The idea that this only concerns international shooters is folly, if you shoot competitively then this should concern you.
. Please name a shooter who competes at a decent level who uses a FWB P34. The pistol caused the reputation of FWB some real issues, and causes them to focus their business on selling rifles. P44s are meant to be very good but have suffered poor sales due to the reputation of their older brothers.
. Last but not least I will say that second hand prices on two internet sites are FAR higher than prices being asked at club level, and at competitions...... I speak as a man who picked up an LP10 last year for £750, and an LP50 compact for £800.
. Rant over, I'm going shooting!!

Regards to all,

[karandras]

My only input to this thread is to say...

Find a club / friend who have the pistols you are looking into and borrow one of each for a night to see how you get on with it. What works for someone else, might feel horrible in your hand.

I don't have a pistol to sell and am not even going to mention which pistol i currently use.

[zooma]

My only input to this thread is to say...

Find a club / friend who have the pistols you are looking into and borrow one of each for a night to see how you get on with it. What works for someone else, might feel horrible in your hand.

I don't have a pistol to sell and am not even going to mention which pistol i currently use.

Well put - and bang on the money!

[zooma]

As most of the above was aimed at me I'll retort..... The 10 year rule is being upheld at all major matches. Whilst it is ridiculous that is the case.The idea that this only concerns international shooters is folly, if you shoot competitively then this should concern you.
. Please name a shooter who competes at a decent level who uses a FWB P34. The pistol caused the reputation of FWB some real issues, and causes them to focus their business on selling rifles. P44s are meant to be very good but have suffered poor sales due to the reputation of their older brothers.
. Last but not least I will say that second hand prices on two internet sites are FAR higher than prices being asked at club level, and at competitions...... I speak as a man who picked up an LP10 last year for £750, and an LP50 compact for £800.
. Rant over, I'm going shooting!!

Regards to all,

Very few target shooter's take part in any "major match" and so the "10 year rule" hardly affects anyone other than the small few that choose to compete at that level - and even then it is only "advisory" - albeit "encouraged" perhaps?

This is the rule you refer to:-

SSF Official Statutes Rules and Regulations
EDITION 2013 (First Print, 11/2012)
Effective 1 JANUARY 2013

6.7.7.1 Equipment Control Procedures

Bullet point 4 States

 It is the athlete’s responsibility that any air or CO2 cylinder is
within manufacturer’s validity date (maximum of ten (10)
years); this may be checked by Equipment Control and
advisory recommendations may be given;

Common sense however - along with safety - concerns us all, and if nothing else the date stamp should prompt the owner to get the cylinder checked inside as it approaches its 10 year anniversary, and sooner if the cylinder has been filled by pump rather than from the more acceptable divers type of air cylinder as it is more prone to inducing condensation and air based particles that could promote corrosion or valve seat failure.

Any sign of internal corrosion will cause the cylinder to be scrapped as potentially unsafe.

The NSRA's own pistol section representative still shoots with his P34 as far as I know, and the last time I spoke to him he had no intention of parting with it ( a fine red coloured example) as it was still reliable and accurate enough for his national duties.

I have never heard the story about the P34 air pistol being so bad that it actually affected Feinwerkbau's reputation at making air pistols to the extent that it had to focus on making match air rifles instead - I am sure this will mystify the contented P34 owners that are happy with them.

What did the story suggest was so wrong with the P34 - lack of accuracy? - no reliability? - poor quality? - wrong colours? - case too large? - too heavy? - too light? ....too expensive more likely!

I really would like to know the answer as apart from some of their gaudy colour choices and a fairly large carry case I really enjoyed using my P34 and I don't know anybody that actually thought that they were a bad pistol for the time period in which they were made - and many shooters still prefer them to the more modern types even to this day as they continue to perform very well in both the one piece and the three piece grip variants .

The high price of the Feinwerkbau air pistols may not have helped their sales much, and their recent increased popularity is seen now that other manufacturers have raised their prices to approach similar high levels. This tends to suggest that they are still very desirable and that their reputation as one of the world's finest match air pistol manufacturers remains very much intact.

Just for the record I do not currently own a P34 or a P44 air pistol - but I have owned them both and never had any complaint about either of them.

Prices vary a lot - not only for used match air pistols but also for new ones too - so it is always best once you have found the type of pistol that suites you and your preferred budget to look around and see if you can find the best price (after taking the age and condition into account) and then buy the one that ticks the most boxes for you.

...but not until after you have tried one to see if it works for you.

Enjoy your shooting - whatever type of pistol you choose and at whatever level you choose to shoot at

[eredel]

Lots of interesting input gentlemen...many thanks for that, its given me plenty to think about but also made the choice more difficult!
Due to nowhere nearby to try I'll probably do my usual and buy a likely candidate and see how I get on, if it doesn't fit the bill then away it will go and I'll try another....it's a fun way to do it!

Eric.

[Fierynick]

I've not seen anyone in TENS/GB squads with anything other than Steyrs and Morinis. The FWBs weren't very well made or reliable apparently, it was the build quality of the Steyrs and Morinis that set them apart from the FWBs, SAMs etc etc. I concede that all modern pistols are good, and I've won medals with Steyr, Morini and even a SAM. I would go as far to say that the SAM felt amazing, but the build quality let it down, mine was plagued with problems and it had to go.
You are correct that the 2013 ISSF rules refer to ten year life spans on cylinders, it is a bit daft, and hopefully in 2016 this rule will be annulled. I appreciate your views on prices of used air pistols, but they are inflated beyond there worth on this site and Gunstar.

I won't post on this thread anymore for risk of offending someone or repeating myself.

Regards

[p.m.h]

Lots of good advice indeed and, given the cost of a quality pistol, it is important to make the right choice.

However, be wary of making a choice after just a few shots if you do borrow a gun.

I recently had a go with a Steyr LP2 Compact, and probably shoot the tighest group I have ever shot. This did, indeed, make me question whether the gun I currently have is the one for me.

With great confidence, I decided to shoot another card, and ended up with results a shotgun owner would be disappointed with.

We all have a personal opinion, and none are right or wrong.

I appreciate it can be difficult to try the various models, but it really is worthwhile, and I am sure there will be a fellow shooter nearby who would be happy to let you shot theirs.

If you fancy a couple of days away, then you would be more than welcome to spend the evening at our club where you could try as many guns as you could imagine, and meet some "faces" at the same time.

Kind regards,



Phil

[karandras]

Lots of interesting input gentlemen...many thanks for that, its given me plenty to think about but also made the choice more difficult!
Due to nowhere nearby to try I'll probably do my usual and buy a likely candidate and see how I get on, if it doesn't fit the bill then away it will go and I'll try another....it's a fun way to do it!

Eric.

Lots of good advice indeed and, given the cost of a quality pistol, it is important to make the right choice.

However, be wary of making a choice after just a few shots if you do borrow a gun.

Its a shame you can't find one of each local to borrow for a night Eric, like Phil says if you fancy a trip up noorf i'm sure we can arrange for you to try out any of your preferred choices.

Phil> That's why i said to try and borrow each for a night, i think i shot my newly acquired pistol on 4 / 5 different occasions before i decided i had to have it.

[wonky donky]

I would guestimate I service & repair more variation in target pistols than most. FWB, Steyr, Hammerli,BRNO,Walther Benelli Diana,Morini etc etc etc.

From a reliability point of view & build quality the P34 is no worse than the Steyr & it's incorrect FWB had got a bad name because of the P34.

It is true however they allegedly stopped manufacturing the rapid fire pcp pistol for a time due to reliability issues & some of the P/cp55's can be very expensive to repair should they stop cycling.

I repair & service quite a few Steyrs over a year usually parallel imports or guns the importer won't service or sell spares for. They are excellent pistols, all of them I have a LP5 myself to play cowboys & indians with.

I also have a FWB c20 again excellent build quality & reliability, I also have an Original.

From my point of view the juries out on the Walther LP400 as I have had a few leaking from the firing valve, more than I would have expected, the seal looks a bit feeble to me, just my observation & not a criticism.

I can't give any handling advice or say how each pistol shoots I'm not a pistol shooter.

What I can say is accuracy is a moot point, they are all consistent & accurate when they are working properly & serviced correctly, some have dimensions, balance, triggers etc more suited to one person than another.

Spares are more readily available for some than others but generally not a problem.

If I was to give any advice on purchasing a pistol it would be try them all if you can & don't get one with a electronic trigger, it's been tried by many over the years & dropped by most but again the Morini seems okay, the odd board has to be replaced now & again. the FWB 90 sometimes had/has the same problem or stops operating because the solonoid needs cleaning

[eredel]

Much more there to digest but it all seems to boil down to "try 'em all" which I probably will over time.
Definitely have to get around to travelling "oop north" sometime and enjoy the offered hospitality...Thank you all!
Regards,
Eric.

[Clank]

Much more there to digest but it all seems to boil down to "try 'em all" which I probably will over time.
Definitely have to get around to travelling "oop north" sometime and enjoy the offered hospitality...Thank you all!
Regards,
Eric.

Firstly, and most importantly, Rawthenstall is NOT "oop north". It's the midlands for Gods sakes!

Now, what Phil and Andy have said regarding trying out different guns is absolutely on the money. And not just for half a dozen shots either.
My own personal PCP match pistol has had a good number of hours invested in it to make it "right" for me. When I pick it up it is like an old glove, it fits my hand perfectly. Much of that is down to the weekend I spent making the grip fit my hand, perfectly.
The trigger has been adjusted every way but Sunday and now I know when it is going to "break".

You cannot achieve this level of comfort from a gun you just pick up and try.

As an example, last night I spent some time shooting a pistol from one of the top makes. A gun I intend to buy. It was bloody awful.
This I will change.

But not everyone can set to and adjust a gun to their preference, some need help and guidance. This is where a good club comes in. I would advise anyone who is thinking of buying a "top end" match pistol to get one to shoot for a while and get some advice. Be aware that the quality of this advice will be variable.

The debate surrounding the various makes of pistol "which one is best" is just soooo subjective. The part that amuses me is the "look which pistols the top shooters use" because there are only two makes reall. This is because most of the other makes do not have a dedicated sports program that is attractive to the shooters. It is not about which one is best, it is about money. It always is. Look at Walther, no real 'Pistol Presence' in air guns - different story with their centre fire and Rifles though. There is a reason for this.

[zooma]

I would guestimate I service & repair more variation in target pistols than most. FWB, Steyr, Hammerli,BRNO,Walther Benelli Diana,Morini etc etc etc.

From a reliability point of view & build quality the P34 is no worse than the Steyr & it's incorrect FWB had got a bad name because of the P34.

It is true however they allegedly stopped manufacturing the rapid fire pcp pistol for a time due to reliability issues & some of the P/cp55's can be very expensive to repair should they stop cycling.

I repair & service quite a few Steyrs over a year usually parallel imports or guns the importer won't service or sell spares for. They are excellent pistols, all of them I have a LP5 myself to play cowboys & indians with.

I also have a FWB c20 again excellent build quality & reliability, I also have an Original.

From my point of view the juries out on the Walther LP400 as I have had a few leaking from the firing valve, more than I would have expected, the seal looks a bit feeble to me, just my observation & not a criticism.

I can't give any handling advice or say how each pistol shoots I'm not a pistol shooter.

What I can say is accuracy is a moot point, they are all consistent & accurate when they are working properly & serviced correctly, some have dimensions, balance, triggers etc more suited to one person than another.

Spares are more readily available for some than others but generally not a problem.

If I was to give any advice on purchasing a pistol it would be try them all if you can & don't get one with a electronic trigger, it's been tried by many over the years & dropped by most but again the Morini seems okay, the odd board has to be replaced now & again. the FWB 90 sometimes had/has the same problem or stops operating because the solonoid needs cleaning

Thanks for your contribution with further confirmation ( if any was ever needed) that the P34 is no better and no worse than the Steyr pistols as far as reliability and build quality is concerned.

It is important to dispel this wild and inaccurate myth that the P34 had any sort of problem that caused any kind of damage to the Feinwerkbau reputation as this is simply not true.

The first PCP single shot target pistol from Feinwerkbau was the P30, and we have a nice example of this pistol banging in superb results at RMTC week after week. The replacement for this pistol was the excellent P34 that ran for quite some time until it was replaced by the P40 - and eventually the P44 that is still current to this day.

All of these PCP pistols enjoy the excellent build quality that Feinwerkbau is so famous for, and their lineage goes right back to what is probably the most iconic of all target air pistols - The Feinwerkbau Model 65.

Making a choice about which pistol to buy that is based on what international shooters use is a good reference point to use for starters - but different shooters in different countries have different choices.

There are many countries that are currently achieving good results in international and Olympic competitions and the choice of air pistols that they use can be quite varied.

These include Walther and Benelli as well as Feinwerkbau and Pardini alongside the Steyr and Morini pistols so the choice is wide open to try them all and choose whatever works best for you at the price you want to pay.

[RobinC]

Hi Eric
There is of course with in reach of you Norwich City Target Club which has a high pistol standard and has members with LP10's, LP2's including compacts, and Morini's. Club night is Tuesdays, I'll PM you with the contact phone number of the Secretary if you would like to visit, and I'm sure you could find members who would let you try their pistols.
The only thing I will add is that pistol choice is and always has been a matter of both what is in fashion at the time and a great deal of personal preference.
Good shooting
Robin

[RobinC]

The debate surrounding the various makes of pistol "which one is best" is just soooo subjective. The part that amuses me is the "look which pistols the top shooters use" because there are only two makes reall. This is because most of the other makes do not have a dedicated sports program that is attractive to the shooters. It is not about which one is best, it is about money. It always is. Look at Walther, no real 'Pistol Presence' in air guns - different story with their centre fire and Rifles though. There is a reason for this.

Walthers have not produced centre fire rifles for some time, their core business is defence pistols and military style products. The target products are a very small part, but they still have a dedicated Sports services dept, and are very visable at big events such as World Cup, etc, much bigger than Steyr and Morini so that is not the problem. To them target air and target smallbore is a tiny part of their business although it is quite high profile as a publicity effort.
The other issue with Walther as far as air pistols go, was that the previous current model LP300 was an update of a 20 year old design and well behind the opposition. They only just have a new product, the LP400 which is well worth considering and is now quite popular in Europe and internationaly, bar England , but that is mostly down to the small market here, the importer, and lack lustre marketing from the UK. Their LG300 and 400 rifles certainly have their fair share of the market internationaly as do the KK300 smallbore rifle. The Walther SSP .22rf pistol is very popular except of course in post Blair UK!
Steyr and Morini have the lions share because target air is their core business and they concentrated very heavily on it. Steyr incidently is a very small out fit, 20 staff, and works on the F1 principle of all parts are sub contracted and the assembly is the only part done in house, and they only make air target products and they are 50% owned by Anschutz. Morini is a similar size or smaller.