Baikal Ij 40 pistol wanted + a few questions for the historians

[ggggr]

If anyone has an IJ 40 pistol for sale (nice and cheap please) can you pm me please. I believe our sponsor was selling these as late as 1990, so guessing there was a bit of an overlap with the 53/53M models?

Now for the history bits
After the war, Milbro got most of the Diana stuff,22,25,27,G4 yet they never got or made a Diana model 5. Any ideas why?
Slavia made a copy of the Diana model 5 (well it is a bit different but close, while the Chinese copy is closer). Did Slavia get the machinery or just decide to do a copy? I think they also copied the Diana 25 rifle as well?
FEG (Relums) did the underlever pistol (I think Hurricane was one of the names) yet they don't appear to have made a break barrel? Where did the design for that come from? quite like a look at one although been told they are rough.
Baikal appear to have exported the IJ 22/38/vostok in the late 60's/early 70's?? yet don't seem to have made a pistol until the 80's? This is a break barrel but nothing like the old Diana model 5 or Slavia. They do not appear to have made copies of Diana rifles either.

So (big sigh), when did any of these companies start to manufacture airguns post WW2? What range of guns did they offer? Was there some sort of Iron curtain agreement about what could be made and where?


UPDATE----RELUM DID MAKE A BREAK BARREL PISTOL AROUND 1960----THE TEMPEST.

[Iain K D]

Blowed if I know, but put this in your pipe and smoke it:

http://www.muzzle.de/N7/Druckluft/Is...wsk_zenit.html

That's a plastic-gripped (looks like) Russian copy of the Zenit isn't it?

Always an interesting site to look at.

Iain

[ccdjg]

Wow, What a lot of questions. Lots of interesting points raised. I thought I would have a shot at these so here goes.

(1) First, unfortunately I don’t have an IJ40 I can offer you. I know it took me a long time to get mine, http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psec2a8dab.jpg but I did see one for sale on eGun a short while ago. As I recall it went for quite a reasonable price.


(2) Possibly Milbro were not tempted to produce a copy of the Diana 5 as when their venture into post-war airgun manufacture began in 1949 there would have been competition from a virtually identical design with the BSF S20. Going for a copy of the EM-GE Zenit as the Milbro Mk IV would make more sense as there was no competition for this design at that time. Incidentally, I don’t think that the Slavia’s and Chinese break barrels are necessarily copies of the Diana 5 as the principles of this break barrel design have been around for at least a 100 years. Just before the War, for example, there were the EM-GE Herkules, FLZ1 and FLZ 2. Or are you thinking more of the finer details of the cocking leverage, sear, trigger etc.?

(3) FEG is a Hungarian arms company that has been going since 1892, but as far as is known they did not venture into airgun manufacture until after the War, when it was under Russian control. I know of only two spring air pistols that they produced in the 1950's. The first from the early 50’s is generally referred to as the “Lampagyar”. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps1c1583ee.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psec113300.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps4ac47c31.jpg

The company had temporarily changed its name (probably not of its own free will) to Lampagyar at that time. The second pistol was the Relum HLP (aka the Telly HLP and Hurricane), introduced later, in 1957. Both designs were completely original and you can see there is a tenuous common theme between them in that they are both loaded by unique side ports, suggesting that they may have had the same designer in common. It seems likely that the HLP evolved from the Lampagyar. The Relum HLP system then went on to be extensively copied by El Gamo (as the Center, Falcon and Target), the Shanghai Airgun Factory (as the QS35) , and in Italy by BBM Bruni, as the CF92. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psb537c070.jpg

FEG did eventually make a break barrel air pistol - in the 1970's, a clumsy design known as the Artex. Some say it was more useful for painting ceilings than shooting, but at least it had an unusual and unique rear sight.

So I can't answer all your questions but perhaps this helps a bit.

[ggggr]

Thanks to both of the chaps above for the information.
Firstly I like that Rusky version of the Zenit (speaking as someone who had a Zenit and got hit by a flying endcap) and it looks like someone has changed the design of the endcap and fitted a lock screw on top?

Secondly, I thought that the Germans were not allowed to manufacture airguns after the war until 1951? I also thought (although probably wrong again) that the Bsf S20 dates from the mid 50's?

I have not tried to measure a Diana 5 against a Chinese version, but pretty sure that the Chinese version has the lug on the piston like the Diana
http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.co...a%20Modell%205
and the Slavia Zvp does not http://anotherairgunblog.blogspot.co...l/Slavia%20ZVP
Also the Diana and the Chinese thing have 2 screws on either side of the grips.

The Feg pistol pics are very interesting. I very briefly owned a Relum Artex, (maybe a week), before sending it to Mr Ogilkes who has a soft (and non boggy) spot for Relums. It was not working when I got it but was when it left.However I felt that there should have been a bar or wheel for the cocking arm to run against?

If anyone can find anymore info or pics, I'm interested to know. How early is that Zenit copy? What did Haenel do pistol wise post war? OH--just seen this http://www.muzzle.de/N7/Druckluft/Ha...el_lup_54.html
Do you think Russia told the other countries what they could build and when?
Thank you for all the information so far and still looking for a cheap Ij 40.

[ccdjg]

Secondly, I thought that the Germans were not allowed to manufacture airguns after the war until 1951? I also thought (although probably wrong again) that the Bsf S20 dates from the mid 50's?

It’s hard to find chapter and verse on exactly when occupied West Germany was allowed to resume airgun manufacture after the War, and you can find dates ranging from 1948 to “the early 1950’s” in various articles. However, for my money the most definitive article is “The German Airgun Industry 1945-1985” by John Walter ( Guns Review, March 1988). In this he states that grudging relaxation of the rules against airgun manufacture was agreed by the Allies in 1950, subject to companies having to apply individually for permission. Although two companies (Kriegeskorte of Stuttgart and Heym of Munnerstadt) have claimed to have resumed manufacture in1949, this has not been confirmed. More reliably, it is on record that Mayer and Grammelspacher began manufacture of their old Model 16 junior air rifle in September 1950. Most sources agree that BSF began manufacture of airguns in 1950, although some have put the date a little later.

[gedfinn 2]

Wow, What a lot of questions. Lots of interesting points raised. I thought I would have a shot at these so here goes.

(1) First, unfortunately I don’t have an IJ40 I can offer you. I know it took me a long time to get mine, http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psec2a8dab.jpg but I did see one for sale on eGun a short while ago. As I recall it went for quite a reasonable price.


(2) Possibly Milbro were not tempted to produce a copy of the Diana 5 as when their venture into post-war airgun manufacture began in 1949 there would have been competition from a virtually identical design with the BSF S20. Going for a copy of the EM-GE Zenit as the Milbro Mk IV would make more sense as there was no competition for this design at that time. Incidentally, I don’t think that the Slavia’s and Chinese break barrels are necessarily copies of the Diana 5 as the principles of this break barrel design have been around for at least a 100 years. Just before the War, for example, there were the EM-GE Herkules, FLZ1 and FLZ 2. Or are you thinking more of the finer details of the cocking leverage, sear, trigger etc.?

(3) FEG is a Hungarian arms company that has been going since 1892, but as far as is known they did not venture into airgun manufacture until after the War, when it was under Russian control. I know of only two spring air pistols that they produced in the 1950's. The first from the early 50’s is generally referred to as the “Lampagyar”. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps1c1583ee.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psec113300.jpg

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...ps4ac47c31.jpg

The company had temporarily changed its name (probably not of its own free will) to Lampagyar at that time. The second pistol was the Relum HLP (aka the Telly HLP and Hurricane), introduced later, in 1957. Both designs were completely original and you can see there is a tenuous common theme between them in that they are both loaded by unique side ports, suggesting that they may have had the same designer in common. It seems likely that the HLP evolved from the Lampagyar. The Relum HLP system then went on to be extensively copied by El Gamo (as the Center, Falcon and Target), the Shanghai Airgun Factory (as the QS35) , and in Italy by BBM Bruni, as the CF92. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psb537c070.jpg

FEG did eventually make a break barrel air pistol - in the 1970's, a clumsy design known as the Artex. Some say it was more useful for painting ceilings than shooting, but at least it had an unusual and unique rear sight.

So I can't answer all your questions but perhaps this helps a bit.

A very informative reply mate ( With pics )
I have had a number of " Odd " pistols slip through my hands as I do not like them, However I just sorted this out from the back of the garage on reading your & ggggr,s posts,

Its a 1960s ( I think ) Original Mod 5, its a big gun & shoots well in .177, I was told its fairly rare, ? Though only worth around £50 ?
Any input,value etc. Ged.

URL=http://s101.photobucket.com/user/gedfinn/media/Picture002.jpg.html][/URL]

[ggggr]

Can anyone add to the history of these pistols etc?
AND has anyone got an Ij40 they don't want?

A few other question for the experts now
I've only just spotted the vintageairguns.co.uk site and saw a couple of the pistols.
Can anyone tell me anything about these pistols? http://www.vintageairguns.co.uk/a-z/...2&wppa-occur=1
It looks like that Feg thing on the Muzzle.de site.
Update--- just found this site.
http://www.vzduchovka.cz/prehled/45300/45300_en.html

Another one is this Haenel (also on the muzzle.de site) http://www.vintageairguns.co.uk/a-z/...3&wppa-occur=1
How much would I expect to pay for a rough but working example of each of these? I only tinker and plink

Thanks for any info and help.

[ccdjg]

The pistol you mention http://www.vzduchovka.cz/prehled/45300/45300_en.html does bear a superficial resemblance to the Lampagyar (FEG) pistol you saw on muzzle.de (which I also pictured in my thread 3 above), but it is quite a different beast. Whereas the Lampagyar comes from Hungary, as the above website indicates, this one was made in Hranica, Czechoslovakia by Josef Brunek from 1947, and was called the Hurikan 47. It is cocked by an underlever and is a 5-shot repeater, firing 4.46 mm lead ball, gravity fed from a magazine located above the barrel breech. The subsequent history of this design is complicated and you can find a few more details than on the Czech website in the Encyclopedia of Spring Air Pistols. Basically it seems that Josef Brunek allowed a version of his pistol with a modified underlever pivot to be produced by the Czech company KPP, and they marketed this version between 1947 and 1949, as the MMH 47. (An example is illustrated on the Czech website)
The pistols were available with a wood or plastic grip frame. There then seems to have been a gap in production until 1954, and the gun was then made by the company OPK in Hranica, sold as the JBH 54, again available with wood or plastic grips. http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q...psbd7d27be.jpg

The gun was sold up to about 1956 when it disappeared altogether. Unless you believe in coincidences, I would say that FEG borrowed more than a little from this design when they introduced their own underlever pistol in 1954.

As far as availability goes, hens’ teeth come to mind. The only one you stand a chance with is the later JBH 54, and then only in the Czech Republic, and still very rare. I managed to get one eventually off the Czech version of fleabay (“Aukro”), with the aid of Google translator, and even then it needed quite a bit of sympathetic restoration on my part.

I am not sure what Haenel model you are asking about, as the link you give is incorrect.

[By the way, I notice that a copy of the Encyclopedia of Spring Air Pistols is up for auction in the Southams December 12th auction, along with other airgun books (nothing to do with me incidentally). If you have an interest in the more obscure air pistols it would be worth trying to get a copy, although it has now been out of print for a while.]

[ggggr]

Thank you for the info. I've corrected the link (I think) for the Haenel L up54
http://www.vintageairguns.co.uk/a-z/...3&wppa-occur=1

So has anybody got a rough example of any of the pistols mentioned in the above posts? I do not consider myself to be a collector, but do like to look at some of the older stuff, especially if it appears to be of heavy construction.
I've always managed to talk myself out of the Relum underlever pistol but I am weakening a bit now.

So a Lampagyar,Hurikan 47etc,Haenel L up54 ,Baikal Ij40 or anything similar to these if you have one in the "junk" box

[Nikkormat]

...The only one you stand a chance with is the later JBH 54, and then only in the Czech Republic, and still very rare. I managed to get one eventually off the Czech version of fleabay (“Aukro”), with the aid of Google translator...

It might also be worth a look on these sites, although they are pretty quiet:

http://bazar.hunting-shop.cz/sekce/5...list=1&search=

http://www.strelecky-portal.cz/bazar...der=0&expand=0

http://www.bazar-zbrani.com/bazar-zbrani/vzduchovky

Matt

[ccdjg]

The following snippet about the Baikal IJ40 comes courtesy of German collector and writer Bruno Bukner, from an engineer who works at the Izhewsk plant. The IJ40 was made between 1985 and 1990, and was designed by Valentin Chebukov (born 1958). Production of its replacement, the IJ53 started in 1990.


Incidentally, the Haenel 54 is a rare East German air pistol made by ETW between about 1952 and 1954. ETW was the state-run replacement for Haenel set up by the Russians after the war. The company used the same Haenel machinery and premises, and produced a limited number of air guns before it finally disappeared in 1993.